When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Hello,

In working with a number of photos of 92 SQ crashes from the action over France on 23 May 1940, I'm trying to determine what SQ Code these aircraft would have been carrying on that date. The Spitfires of two 92 SQ pilots (Bushell & Gillies) shot down that day were burned out back beyond the squadron codes. We're creating color profile artwork of Roger Bushell's a/c that day for the massive EOE historical project, and need to know when the codes of 92 SQ changed from GR to QJ. I'm aware of the photo of Wright's GR*S, reputedly taken on 2.6.40, in Norman Franks' "Air Battle Over Dunkirk." However, other info about Wright's aircraft indicates that it might have been "QJ" after returning from an air battle over Dunkirk. Who can sort this out and provide an accurate date for the change over in the codes. I would welcome further photos from 92 SQ from that period to help sort this out.

Regards,

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Larry, if you don't get a reply here, try on the Aces High board. Dan, aka Guppy35, is quite knowledgeable on 92 Sqn. Is always posting photos of #92 Spits.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Larry

The photo of Cazenove's Spitfire down on the beach near Phare de Walde seems to have NO squadron codes, just the individual letter. Maybe this was very much the actual transition period - although a photo exists of Ronnie Foke's Spitfire apparently after a mishap in July which is coded GR-A.

According to Robinson's history of 92 Squadron Klipsch's aeroplane on the day he was lost was GR-H, but I am unclear as to what his sources are or how reliable this is.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

92 Squadron code.......

GR - November 1939 to June 1941.
QJ - July 1941 onwards to December 1946.

'Combat Codes' - Flintham / Thomas.

Regards
Peter.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

QJ was certainly being worn earlier than July 1941, and certainly during the Battle of Britain. There was also the issue of both 92 and 616 wearing QJ codes at the same time.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Kutscha,

I took a look at "Aces High," and saw several posts from Guppy35, but none with photos. Do you have a way for me to directly contact this "Dan," or a specific web address for any of these codes that you can post here for me?

Thanx,

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Larry,

Records show that Spitfire X4561 (www.spitfire.ukf.net) was delivered to 92 Sqn in December 1940 as QJ-B. I have also found numerous Photographs depicting 92 Sqn Spitfires showing letters QJ as late as December 1941 on the Imperial War Museum website (www.iwmcollections.org.uk). Hope it helps.

Regards,

Paul.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Larry,

Just found a very good site covering the histories of Squadrons. Here is a link to the page you need for 92 Sqn showing that the code GR was allocated Apr 1939 - Sep 1939, Oct 1939 - May 1940 and the code QJ allocated May 1940 - Dec 1946. Oops here's the link http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn091-95.htm

Regards,

Paul.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

301 (P) Squadron has been formed at Bramcote in June 1940 and equiped in Fairey Battles. This picture below was taken in August so obviously there is an answer of who was using GR code letters since then.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

QJ*P W3183

W3183 Vb 1696 HPA M45 FF 23-5-41 9MU 25-5-41 92S 26-6-41 Missing escorting Stirlings to Lille 11-7-41 P/O J Dougall PoW

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

R6596 QJ-S. I think an overpainted 'R' can be made out under the 'J'. Perhaps someone has a better copy of the photo.
No. 92 Sqn were the first users of the Spitfire and it was apparently delivered in early June, so if there really is an overpainted 'GR' under the 'QJ', the old code must have been in use until then.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

You can have a look at this one as well.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

Best Wishes.
Robert

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Guys

It seems like RAF was not all that fast to implement the new code system with the units in 1940. From the books I am reading it looks like it more or less came as a surprise to many units that they had in fact changed codes.
The so called pre-war code were
GR : 92 Sq
QJ : 616 Sq

At one point the top brass changed all pre-war codes to new ones and
GR became 301 Sq
QJ became 92 Sq
(616 Sq received YQ)

I don't believe there exists any official documents stating exactly WHEN the change took place. If it did there would be no problem at least not officially.

My own opinion is that with everything like new directives regarding markings, RAF in the field had their hands full with much more important issues than re-painting aeroplanes during the summer of 1940. They were in the middle of either winning or loosing the war! I have no problems seeing aeroplanes continuing to wear the pre-war markings for a much longer period than stipulated while getting new aircraft correctly painted.

Now on the other hand if someone has a 100% certainty of the date each and every photo he holds in his hand was taken, start shooting...:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

The mass code change took place on the outbreak of war in September 1939. For some reason 92 missed it. They are not the only example but it was rare.

Nothing to do with the activities of summer 1940.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

According to Stanford Tuck, 'Fly For Your Life', when he was with 92 Squadron: armoured wndscreens was fitted prior, I think, to his second mission over Dunkirk. In the pic on my previous post there is what looks like, the edge of an armoured windscreen frame. This would indicate that the pic above was taken during or shortly after the Dunkirk period. So, well after the outbreak of war.

Best Wishes.
Robert.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

Graham

Yes, I know when the "mass change" took place, but we are talking about the units that missed that order, or did not bother...

I cannot say a precise date when each unit finally had done the change, but since every book so far written about these codes and code changes give different views and so does basically everyone writing in on this topic, there is a clear lack of official documents left in British archives.

Again, personally, I still believe units could very well have been using both old and new codes simultaneously and especially the old codes far longer than the regulations actually stipulated, which means there is no specific date but a rather floating one:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

You originally posted "many units" - I believe it to be few, and you will have difficulty coming up with more than a handful of examples. After all, orders were to be obeyed, not to be argued over or got around to when convenient.

You seem to be looking for specific orders to those lagging units, which I rather doubt you will find. More likely it will have been a "word of mouth" comment between fellow officers - "Good Lord, you aren't still using those prewar codes!"

As for parallel use, surely this would only have been very temporary, and only a matter of working through the unit's aircraft with a few pots of paint. Days at most.

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

You are right Graham

It was a bit sloppy wording using "many" instead of a few. I guess I was carried away when checking two units and both units were those who obviously didn't get the order to change codes...:o

I agree that if everone really wanted to change codes, you could repaint the aeroplanes in a couple of minutes that is if the CO and down rushed out with bucket and brush all set to do what their superiors instructed.
Somehow I cannot fancy any CO rushing out in coveralls re-decorating everyones airplanes including his own....:D

Cheers
Stig

Re: When did 92 SQ change their codes from GR to QJ (sometime in mid-1940)?
 

I must admit to partially hoping you could come up with more than the usual suspects!

As for everyone including the CO joining in, I suspect you are right, if only because if more than the two attached ground crew were involved, they'd only get in each others' way. I believe that the officers and other flying personnel did get involved in painting the D-Day stripes, later in the war, but there's rather more involved in that.