Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Was Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder in command of II./ZG 26 when in Russia in winter of 1941-42? Could someone in the know list all the Kommodoren and Kommandeure of ZG 26 and SKG 210 (ZG 1) during their stay in Russia? My sources don't match
Thanks in advance! :)

Hmmmmm, no one? :?

It might take a while to generate an answer, please wait at least a week before bumping your question.

check here
 

Not complete, but a start:

http://www.ww2.dk/articles/grupkz.htm

Don

I have one more urgent question. Was Hptm. Johannes Freiherr von Richthofen Staffelkapitaen of 5./ZG 26 or 6./ZG 26? :?

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Lagarto:

1. I have a list for all Commanding officers of ZerstorerWaffe for 1939-45. It is 90% completed. Contact me offboard, I will share needed info.

2. He was StaKa of 6./ZG26.

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

A search of our files was not very helpful in resolving who was Kdr. of II./ZG 26 on the winter of 1941/42 but the implication was that it was most likely Johannes Shalk or possibly Ralph von Rettberg. Regarding Thierfelder, we have:

THIERFELDER, Werner.
(DOB: 24.12.15 in Berlin).
09.39 in II./ZG 26.
10.10.41 Oblt., awarded Ritterkreuz, Staka in II./ZG 26.
03.11.42 Oblt., awarded DKG, 5./ZG 2.
22.04.43 Oblt. in ZG 26, ordered to RLM (Stab/Gen.d.Jagdflieger – L.In.3) for temporary duty.
09.06.43 Oblt., permanently trf to RLM (Stab/Gen.d.Jagdflieger – L.In.3).
15.12.43 Hptm., appt Leiter (Führer) Erprobungskommando 262 at Lechfeld (to 18.07.44).
[06.44 Kdr. III./ZG 26] - perhaps
18.07.44 Hptm., KIA – in Me 262 crash near Lechfeld while attempting to intercept a U.S. bomber formation over South Germany; this was the first operational loss of an Me 262 jet.
Credited with 27 air victories plus 41 more destroyed on the ground.


We hope that this helps

HLdZ
DGS

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Doug:

Stab./ZG26 01.10.1940-24.09.1941 Oberst Johann Schalk (Stab was renamed Stab/NJG3)
Stab II./ZG26 11.04.1940-21.02.1942 Hptm. Ralph von Rettberg

All info that I have on duties of Werner Thierfelder, #2 Zerstorer ace:

Lt. Werner Thierfelder in Stab I./ZG26, 9.1939-18.7.1941
Oblt. Werner Thierfelder StaKa 1./ZG26, 19.07.1941-07.08.1941
Oblt. Werner Thierfelder StaKa 6./ZG26, 07.08.1941-31.04.1942
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder in Stab./ZG2, 31.04.42-01.07.1942
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder StaKa 4./ZG 2, 01.07.1942-08.1942
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder StaKa 5./ZG 2, 08.1942-09.1942
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder in Rechlin, evaluation of Me.410, the He.219, the Ju.88G and the Ar.440, 09.1942 - 15.12.43
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder KdoFu Erprobungskommando 262 15.12.43 - 22.6.44
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder KdoFu+Gr.Kdr. Erprobungskommando 262 (+III./ZG26 wich was equipping with Me262) 6.44 - 18.7.44, KiA

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Yevgeny,

I'm a bit confused on these dates:

Hptm. Werner Thierfelder StaKa 4./ZG 2, 01.07.1942-06.1942
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder StaKa 5./ZG 2, 06.1942-09.1942

Also, concidering the fact that he his supposed to have claimed 27 air victories, I have never found any specific details on any of his claims. Can anyone provide some?

Thanks,
Tom

Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder
 

Hi guys

Here is what I have been able to uncover on this fellow. Not much concerning his victories, though, as it appears that victory claim information for Zerstörer pilots is hard to come by. By the way, would anyone have another photograph of this ace?

http://rapidshare.com/files/39595168...elder.zip.html

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

On 18 july, in the aircombat over Staraya Russa airfield, I-153's of 38iap shot down and killed Gr.Kdr. I./ZG26 Hptm. Horst Lehrmann. StaKa 1./ZG26, Oblt Wilhelm Spiess took over I./ZG26, and Oblt. Thierfelder became StaKa 1./ZG26.

But already on 10 augest 1941, in aircombat over Kingisepp, soviet fighter ramm Bf110 of StaKa 6./ZG26, Oblt. Alfred Möll, who was killed in his crippled aircraft. Oblt Thierfelder took his place as StaKa 6./ZG26.

He led his Staffel through hardest battles on the way to Leningrad, and got great success, such as attack on airfield of 5iap VVS KBF, when pilots of II./ZG26 destroyed 33 aircrafts on the ground and damaged more 13, plus shot down 3 in the air.

On 31 april 1942, ZG26 was disbanded and absorbed by ZG1 and ZG2.
Maj. von Rettberg, ex-Gr.Kdr. of II./ZG26, took one of his best StaffelKapitane with him to Stab./ZG2, when was appointed Komodore ZG2.

He took the post of StaKa 4./ZG2 after Hptm. Paul Matuscheck, and after that was appointed StaKa 5./ZG2 after Hptm. Oskar Gehring, who was transferred to I./ZG1.

After ZG2 was disbanded, he moved to Stab duty.

As zerstorer ace, familiar with two engined heavy aircrafts, he was posted to test new Me262 heavy two engined fighter, jet zerstorer.

On 2.6.44, III./ZG26 gave last 14 servicable Bf110's to other units and became first ZerstoreGruppe, equipped with Me262. Obstlt Johann Kogler, who led Gruppe in last 3 months of hardest RVT dutyes, was appointed to Geschwader Komodore, and Hptm. Thierfelder took over III./ZG26, and used his expirience of Me262 flying to teach his pilots.

Unfortunatly, he was killed in his first combat mission on 18.7.44.

Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder
 

Hello Evgeny

Many thanks for your additions and corrections to what I had concerning this important Luftwaffe ace. Just one point of clarification: he took the place of Oberleutnant Alfred Möll who was killed in aerial combat on 10 August 1941 so therefore he could not have been appointed Staffelkapitän of 6./ZG 26 on 7 August 1941? Many thanks for the photograph as I have been searching for a better one for quite some time.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

I am glad to help You, Leo :)

Yes, 10 aug, correct, not 7 aug.

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Good night to all!
About his last combat mission, on 18th July 1944; is there any evidence of him or his machine being hit by return fire? Is there any recorded transcription of his Radio messages? Is there any kind of indication of him exceeding the limits of the Me 262 and having some kind of compressibility problems? We do know that there was NO evident Allied claim on a type looking like a Me 262...What was the probable cause of his death? ( Maybe an Oxygen problem? ) Was there any kind of post-accident investigation on the part of the Luftwaffe?
Any information related to his last mission would be very welcomed.
Yours
Adriano

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Yevgeny,

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards,
Tom

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Adriano - we should look on some good Me262 book for an answer.

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

I do have the "Me 262 Combat Diary" by Harvey and Foreman and there are NO information available on the causes of the crash of Hptm Thierfelder.
I wonder IF there was a Comission investigating the crash and causes of the loss. As far as I know it was common, at least to the RAF, to have such kind of Aircraft Accident Investigation Comissions...I remember reading about one such RAF officer who underwent this kind of training.
Yours
Adriano Baumgartner

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

PS: I mean NO detailed information..the book is excellent and they did a helluva job, interviewing and tracking both sides who fought against the Me 262 ( RAF, USAF, PAF ) as well as interviewing the available Luftwaffe airmen who flew the machine in combat. It is a great book with a lot of information...no doubt about it. IF they did not find any kind of Post-Accident investigation, I guess that there is no such document available...( my personal opinion ).
Yours
Adriano

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Adriano:
According info, that I was able to find:
Hptm. Thierfelder crashed, flying Me 262 S6 (VI+AK, W.Nr. 130011). His last mission was intercept of USAAF bombers, but he had no contact,got engine trouble on way home, and crashed. It is thought, that he entered the dive to shut the flame, but Me262 entered uncontrollable dive and crashed. Pilot could not leave aircraft because of extremly high speed.

Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder
 

Hi guys

This is what I have found concerning the circumstances of his death on 18 July 1944: according to Boehme's account based on the III./ZG 26 unit diary he took off in Me 262 S6 "VI + AK" (W.Nr. 130 011) against enemy bomber formations during which he made contact with 15 enemy fighters and was subsequently shot down in the vicinity of Lechfeld near Kaufering in Oberbayern. He baled out but his parachute failed to deploy properly and he fell to his death. However, several members of EKdo 262 including Horst Geyer, Helmut Lennartz, Hans-Günther Müller and Viktor Preusker claim that he did not engage the enemy and that his death was due to a technical malfunction of his aircraft. It appears that the exact causes of his death will remain somewhat of a mystery.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Leo - do You know, are there any USAAF fighter claims over Me262 on that day?

Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder
 

Hello Evgeny

The only source that I was able to find concerning USAAF claims against Me 262 jet fighters lists the first American claim as having occurred on 28 August 1944. The cause for the loss of Thierfelder appears to be rather uncertain with the III./ZG 26 unit diary stating that it was due to aerial combat with 15 enemy fighters while several members of EKdo 262 state it to have been due to a technical malfunction, including Leutnant Viktor Preusker who I have read claimed that he could remember that the cause of the crash was the detachment of the stator rings on both engines. On the other hand Dan O'Connell states that the loss could have been due to damage caused by return fire from the bombers that Thierfelder was to have engaged... Much speculation but little in the way of hard evidence. I sort of lean to the possibility of a technical malfunction in light that there is no evidence from American sources of a Me 262 having been shot down that day. What do you think?

http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media...100315-020.pdf

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?
 

Hello Leo

Is there the same doc concerning losses of Ar234 to Spits ??

Remi

Ar 234 Losses
 

Hello Remi

My apologies for not having seen your post until now. I really do not have much information that I can add regarding Ar 234 losses to Spitfire fighters. The only claims that I am aware of are:

2 March 1945: F/Lt Dennis Reid of 41 Sqn, RAF
12 April 1945: F/Lt Tony Gaze and F/Lt Derek Rake of 41 Sqn, RAF share in the destruction of an Ar 234
2 May 1945: P/O Desmond Watkins, F/Sgt André Kicq, F/O Albert Van Eeckhoudt and F/Lt Patrick Bangerter of 350 Sqn, RAF all share in the destruction of an Ar 234

Note that all claims appear to have been recorded with Griffon engined Spitfire fighters. I hope that this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Hptm. Werner Thierfelder - Gruppenkommandeur II./ZG 26 ?