Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

It's time for me to ask the perennial question about an first hand account I read in some book who's title I forgot--something about American pilots serving in the RAF...this particular story is a little hazy but the gist of it is: the guy recollecting was one of 8 spitfire pilots patrolling around the time of the El Alamein battles--not sure exactly but DEFINITELY AFTER the death of HJ Marseilles; while on patrol the 8 spits are bounced by TWO extremely well flown Me 109s who down 2 of the spits before the rest even know they're there. The rest of the dogfight is recalled by the witness as the remaining 6 pilots being totally outflown & boxed in by these two pilots, who succeed in shooting down a third Spit & damaging a couple more---in a nutshell, the witness felt that if the Me pilots hadn't either run short of ammo and/or fuel & had to disengage, NONE of the patrol would have survived;

So...the question is: WHO were these two pilots? Given the time it could have been any number of pilots, but probably NOT JG27 experten; I am not sure about JG53 but I THINK that they may have been from JG77...at the time JG77 had flying for it: Munchenberg, Baer, Hackl, Freitag and Reinert among the ones I know...since I can't put my finger on the EXACT date, I am hoping someone 'out there' might either have the book or can make an educated guess as to who these top notch pilots were;

Thanks, ahead of time

NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi, Nick

I tried to start this message at least 10 times, but couldn't come up with a good way.... earlier experiences has shown that trying to post a message on this board where the 'amis' aren't the best in every respect tends to be quite harshly flamed...

I have been using a couple of weeks this spring researching parts of the Tunisian campaign, the results will be published late this year, must get some more ULTRA in it.

Ok, that's the backdrop, now for the message that no doubtly will not be appreciated:

An averagely trained Rotte from this period would probably be able to cut a non-suspecting formation of Spits to pieces. And the clues to how this happened in this instance is partly in the story already:

Part 1: The bounce! Correct positioning and dive would ensure that the first pass would get rid of (probably) the trailing two-ship part of the formation. Chances are even that the pilots shot down would have been unable to warn their compatriots, and if the zoom-boom was performed correctly, the Bf 109 pair would be at a height and thus power advantage again, unseen by the rest of the formation.

Part 2: Attrition. The rest of the fight would be for the Bf 109's to wait, pick a target and get there, never engaging in a turning fight.

This is not expert flying, it is textbook flying when it comes to tactics for a Bf 109 driver from this period.

We will probably never get to know who these pilots where, but You could probably chalk them up as Fw. This and Uffz. That from JG 27, JG 53 or JG 77, two ordinary guys doing their ordinary job in their Bf 109F-4.

Hehehe!!!

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Andreas I'll be going on a limb here, but I doubt that this performance is an exhibit of average Jagdwaffe pilots of the period. That doesn't mean they have to be Ritterkreuzträger with high scores, but they probably were veteran Experten in their own right, veteran Fw and/or Uffz. if you prefer it that way.

:)

To fight in a textbook manner requires above average skills, the shooting and discipline appearant from the limited info also implies that same above average skill level.

The initial bounce isn't the really intersting part of the story, the disciplined continuation of the fight and the final disengagement are what makes it special IMHO.

Lets not forget that to attack a superior number of fighters requires that you recognise your own (superior) position, have certain trust in your personal skill and thorough knowledge of your aircraft's capabilities (and that of the enemy).

Again this points in the direction of veteran pilots.

Account source
 

The story of the desert Spit 5s being bounced by 2 wellflown Bf109s is from the book "The Eagles War" by Haugland.
The story was told by Sgt Leo Nomis, flying with 92 Sq, just before the El Alamein breakthrough.I have never been able to determine the date of this engagement.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Kaki & the rest;

thanks for all who replied; Kaki:That's the book--AND the engagement I recalled; well...I suppose someone with access to John Foreman's books on loss for Fighter Command could probably help us pin down the date, place & time;in any case, the event must stand out: how many cases of 92 Sq losing 3 spits & several others damaged in a single engagement in 1942 in North Africa could there be, eh?
Thanks!
NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Andreas:

Let us not forget that in late 1942 the Axis armed forces would be having problems with fuel, spare parts & other supplies; it would stand to reason that if the LW had a limited number of Me's to put in the air they would no doubt only allow pilots with a record of success to fly those planes--no doubt in order to 'maximise' the effect a limited number of aircraft would have; maybe as you said it would not be a Muenchenberg, a Baer or a Hackl but just an Feldwebel or Unteroffizer---but those NCO pilots would still have to be of above average experience, when it came to shooting & flying;

NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Nick:

I believe John Foreman's book concern only the UK-based Fighter Command and the 2nd TAF, not operations in the Med. or North Africa.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

I can't find an exact match in Fighters Over The Desert. Roll on the long-awaited successor!

However, on 26th September eight Spitfires of 92 Sq were escorting Hurricanes when the force was bounced by five 109s. Marseille claimed one Hurricane, followed by three Spitfires. Oblt. Schlang claimed a Spitfire. Two Spitfires were actually lost.


If so, then hardly an ordinary Feldwebel!

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Another point that should be made, is how JG.27's successes were heavily dependent upon a few star pilots that were cossetted by their fellows to an extent unknown in the Allied forces. This lead to morale collapse when the aces were lost (witness after Marseille's death), and a lack of experience in depth. The "ordinary" feldwebel in JG 27 was probably very ordinary indeed.

The pilots in Loomis's story are likely to be very identifiable indeed, when the actual incident is convincingly established.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

I don't think JG 27 was different from any German fighter unit at the time. The German combat made and victory award system both gave more "victories" to aces than pilots with a weak score. Most units had a few star scoring most of the victories of the unit, while new pilots learned their skill by flying wingmen and begin to score victories months after arriving in the unit... and begin to really score and become aces when they became Rotte-leaders or even Scharm-leaders, if they survive until then.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

In principle I agree, but perhaps it reached its extreme at this time with Marseille. The point I wished to make was not to distinguish JG 27 from the rest of the Jagdwaffe, but to point out that this level of competence did not run very deep in the ranks.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi, guys....

Just as I thought... an allied airman (a western allied one that is) would not get shot down by any other pilot than the Star of Africa....

You have to do Your homework, guys.... the comments in this thread would indicate that the Jagdwaffe in late 42 only had a few battle-worn aircraft at their disposal.

If You check the records of the GenQu 6 Abt at BA/MA, and look at the amount of aircraft delivered to the Jagdwaffe (parts of JG 27, JG 53 and JG 77) in the North African theatre, You will find that they received Bf 109G's in the hundreds during the autumn 1942.

For example:

I./JG 77 got 41 brand new G-2/trop when they were transferring to Africa in Sept/Oct 1942.

During the last two months of 42 they lost about 33 aircraft in total, and got 21, ending up with a strength of 25 G-2 trop at the end of the year (and then they got 17 new G-2 trops in January '43 also)

The picture is similar for III. Gruppe JG 77.

Another fighter unit in the NA was II./JG 53. In the period October 1942 through February 1943 they received 125!!! brand new Bf 109G-4/trop

I./JG 27 received 32 G2's and 29 G4's from October 42 to February 43.

II./JG 27 was the worst off, they had to take over F-4's from other reequipping Gruppen, but nonetheless received a total of about 60 aircraft during the same period, undoubtedly of mixed condition, but good enough to fly.

III./JG 27 was also at the bottom of the ladder it seems.

However, the established strength of these units comprised until VERY late in 1942 (I am then talking turn of the year), was usually above 25 aircraft per Gruppe.

But I guess Marseille flew most of them...... the other pilots down there were mostly novices, fresh from school... NOT!

Another aspect Graham Boak brings into discussion, is that the Luftwaffe in the area were totally dependant on a handful of aces, and did not have the moral nor (probably in his opinion) the pilot capability to down allied fighters when these heavy hitters were not available. To be frank, this is a generalization and in all respects totally wrong. To base such a conclusion on what it seem from his message, a single report from a few desillusioned Luftwaffe prisoners? taken in 1942 is quite spectacular.

I would urge You guys to make a quick read of the claims reports posted by Tony Wood on his site for this period (latter half of 1942). From that list I think I could name about 40-50 pilots that were experienced combat veterans by late 1942, which skill I would say were adequate both in piloting and mastering the difficulties of a combat situation.

I guess that the handful of capable pilots Mr. Boak is referring to does not include many of the following, at the time members of JG 27 with scores ranging from a handful to between fifty and a hundred claims up to the period we are discussing:

Sawallisch, Sinner, Rödel, Krenz, Steis, Schöfböck, Stigler, Steis, Homuth, Monska, Besch, Kientsch, Bendert, Rosenberg, Franzisket, Gläser, Scheib, Hoffmann, Gruber, Krainik, Düllberg, Schneider, Jürgens, Werfft, Unterberger, Stahlschmidt, Körner, Schroer, Steinhauser, Lieres und Wilkau, Kügelbauer, Schulze, Heidel, Boerngen, Kaiser, Vögl, Heinecke, Clade, Kabisch. And of course it could not be the less known (at the time) Brandl, Hanbeck, Döring, Dietz, Jansen or Stückler.

You have of course to take about 4 from this list, to make up for Boak's handful, I still see a couple of names which I would guess could handle a Bf 109 pretty well, even if they were mere Uffz of Fw.

I have just completed the excellent book on Bodenplatte by Pütz and Manrho, where several of the according to Graham Boak desillusioned pilots that had by then survived (some of them all, other a large part) BoB, Barbarossa, the Balkans and North Africa and the western front through 1944 were still flying.... others were butchered during 1944, but that was a totally different war!

I guess this will be a bit like poking a stick into an anthill, but what the hell! You only get what fun You make Yourself!!

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

I totally agree that it was a generalisation; however it is described in almost every book on the Jagdwaffe, and particularly those covering the desert campaign. Is it not true that Marseille's companions - including several of the aces you name - would stand outside the combat to watch the great man in action? Was his gruppe not withdrawn from action after his death on the grounds of fallen morale? Which no doubt had deeper roots in the operational tiredness of a hard-worked unit, but proverbs about camels seem appropriate here.

I don't recall any comments about a few battle-worn aircraft. However, all the dates you quote for massive reinforcements for JG53 and JG77 are after Alamein - after the incident reported, and hence totally irrelevant. How many of the pilots you name were operational in this area and at this time?

You criticise me for requiring a "star" - no sir, I merely point out that actions described would fit such, that the entire Jagdwaffe was not populated by superbeings, and that at least one such action involving a star can be found that fits the description. Whereas no other has been suggested, as yet.

You in turn would appear to think that the lowest German pilot would obviously outclass the best Allied one - if you think that a misrepresentation, I can only recommend you study your own postings in the same light.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Let's not also forget that regardless of how many planes the JG's had on hand, the German effort still had to deal with issues of fuel, spares, servicibility & the fact that the Allies were either bombing the crap out their landing grounds or attacking their lines of supply almost at will; regardless of how many planes the JGs had on hand, the question is how many could they put in the air...And another note RE: the encounter 92 Sqd had: Nomis was clear in his recollections that Marseilles had already died by the time of their dogfight--as had Steinhausen & Stahlschmidt & Lieres-Wilkau being wounded---so I am guessing the encounter took place some time in Mid October 1942;
So...does anyone have Norman Franks' book on Fighter Command losses handy?

NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Franks RAF losses deals with ETO (UK and 2 TAF) only, same goes for Foreman's RAF FC books. So two strikes and only one more to go...

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Is there any more information in the book that might help?

However, looking in Fighters Over The Desert at the dates between Marseille's death and the opening of the battle of El Alamein, there are no clashes between the Jagdwaffe and 92 Sq. that make even a reasonable match. 92 lost two out of four on a ground strafe on the 10th, but that clearly isn't it. Other combats are either many-on-many or high altitude clashes where 92 came out on top. Or, allowing for some overclaiming, at least without more than single losses, if any.

So, on the current evidence, the best match is still that I described above, which is apparently too early.

The German fighter units available in this period were II and III/JG27, and III/JG53, at times operating together to mass as many as thirty fighters. Most of the operations appear to be in single staffel strength. Perhaps the German unit histories can provide more than this rather elderly source.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Couldn't part of this question - the date - be resolved by reference to No. 92 Squadron's Operations Record Book in the UK National Archive, or doesn't it survive for this period?

Once you have a date, time and location, things get much easier.

Until someone (not me for a a few months, I'm sorry to say!) has the chance to look at this primary source, this otherwise very interesting discussion seems doomed never to identify the pilots concerned.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi.

One should probably then go to the existing primary sources, and try to use them, especially concerning the timelines here.

The only target information given by the original poster was 'around the battles of El Alamein' --- according to my information, the second battle of El Alamein STARTED with an allied barrage on October 23 1942. I thus find it quite interesting that the above mentioned information by me is totally disregarded, that it has no relevance. If You at all had bothered to check existing sources mr. Boak, You would have seen that the picture mentioned by me regarding the influx of aircraft to the JG 27 units show a uniform picture from March 42 through October 1942 (when they were at a low point, but still over 25 aircraft per Gruppe, and received a heavy complement of brand new Bf 109G-2/trop), and that the pilots I mentined in the above post for a large part scored heavily (according to their claims listings) from early in 1942 and up until the date I mention in my earlier post.

I am not stating that the average german airman of the time would be able to outfight the best allied aces. I only stated that the JG 27 at the time had a VERY long list of aircrew that I do believe was adequate at handling a Bf 109. Also, I have not seen any evidence that the flight we are talking about here (from 92 Sqdn probably?) comprised the best allied pilots of the time? If this was the case, it would then of course be very interesting to try to identify the pilots that were able to in a Rotte formation totally dominate the best 8 or 9 aces on allied side.

Remeber also mr. Boak, that I am trying to find out what happened, and also try to answer more than Your messages only. The quote about a few battle-worn aircraft were directed at the message by NickM.

You also have to look at the time period when trying to make conclusions here. The collapse of the Luftwaffe had not started by autumn 1942, the pilots were still doing full training courses befor being posted to an operational unit.

That is my point.

And further - a discussion like this is totally fruitless unless a source is quoted. All other is just talk.

My suggestion for further work on this matter is that we try to establish the date, and we can then focus on the available sources from that time. I know for a fact that a lot of information from Fliegerführer Afrika is available in original at BA/MA, and mr Beale is also correct, this incident should have been mentioned in the Squadron ORB, which should be available at Kew. (will start to search for it in the PROCAT tomorrow).

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

The date is stated in a later post as just before the El Alamein breakthrough. It is then, even later, stated as being after Marseille's death. This does narrow the possible dates (and units) down somewhat.

When dealing with the death of Marseille, Shores and Ring state that September 1942 had been a very bad month for I/JG27, three of the unit's most successful pilots having been killed. (Presumably this includes Marseille himself.) That would certainly weaken the unit's experience level.

Evidence of the operations of the remaining three Jagdgruppe in this period suggests that they regularly operated in small numbers, and could only assemble any significant number by combining elements from all three units. This is entirely consistent with units at the end of a long and troubled supply line, having difficulty maintaining serviceability.

I certainly make no claim for 92 squadron being a collection of aces: most RAF units in the Desert at this time were suffering from the massive expansion of the RAF and the inevitable dilution of experience. However, 92 does seem to have a fairly creditable record against the Jagdwaffe in this period. Certainly a number of successful pilots flew with this unit, not least Neville Duke, one of DAF's top scoring pilots. Sadly, Fighters over the Desert does not have an index to aid any kind of checking.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

So...I guess that means that no one knows, eh? Sigh! Too bad! Oh well...Until the reprint of FOTD or someone gets into 92 squadron's ORB, this matter is closed...

NickM

PS: Andreas, I didn't mean to imply that the JW had only a few wornout Fighters on hand; I was only under the impression that, during the rush for the Egyptian border, the Axis forces had not only begun to outstrip their supplies, but that offensive forces stationed in Malta were sinking a greater percentage of their supplies & that this also led to a supply pinch for the LW as well...

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi,

I spent last year researching the basic topic in this thread, the Luftwaffe in North Africa in 1942, so I thought I might add my opinion about some of the issues raised.

Regardless of the exact date of the combat, we can assume it was October or early November 1942.

Graham’s point about the loss of morale in I./J.G. 27 is valid. It was no doubt a combination of combat fatigue and the loss of senior pilots, Marseille, Stahlschmidt, and Steinhausen, that saw the Gruppe withdrawn from combat in October 1942. But don’t attribute the withdrawal too much simply to Marseille, because the Gruppe had seen 17 months of continuous combat, which was surely significant. Perhaps we can consider Marseille’s death the final straw, as Graham says.

As for lack of aircraft for the Luftwaffe in North Africa, yes, this was becoming a problem in October and November 1942 in Egypt, but it was certainly not bringing operations to a standstill. On 21 March 1942, when the Axis supply system was almost at its best, there were 159 Luftwaffe sorties in North Africa, on 6 September 1942 there were 130, and on 22 October 1942 there were 142.

To look at it simply in terms of number of aircraft available:

Luftwaffe Aircraft Strength in North Africa

17.01.42 168
04.04.42 169
10.06.42 233
20.08.42 266
20.10.42 241

What should be noted is that the DAF was consistently getting bigger, and was getting more aircraft with greater performance, notably the Spitfire.

Regarding the idea that the Luftwaffe in North Africa was dependent on a few ace pilots, I calculated that between February and 23 October 1942, the top ten Luftwaffe aces claimed 424 of the 930 victories in North Africa. To me, that indicates an over-reliance on a few pilots.

Nick’s point about bombing of airfields is very important as well.

Luftwaffe losses on the ground in North Africa, February – 23 October 1942

To bombing: 64 aircraft destroyed, 89 aircraft damaged
To special forces: 37 aircraft destroyed, 19 aircraft damaged
Total: 101 destroyed, 108 damaged.

These figures are far from complete, but are all accounted for in German records.

Serviceability is also an important issue. The Luftwaffe in North Africa was always behind the DAF in this regard. The DAF consistently maintained serviceability of 70-75%, while the Fliegerführer Afrika never rose above 67%.

Fliegerführer Afrika Serviceability

17.01.42 - 51.7
04.04.42 - 50.2
10.05.42 - 67.3
10.06.42 - 61.3
27.07.42 - 54.3
20.08.42 - 60.1
20.10.42 - 53.5

Cheers,
Andrew A.

“You’ll never silence the voice of the voiceless” – Rage Against The Machine

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

For these kinds of statistics I can recommend The Ace Factor, by Mick Spick.

Part of his thesis is that only 5% of pilots actually get kills.

One of the more interesting titles by Spick.

Frank Olynyk was kind enough to send me a copy of the original study that Spick used (at work, hence the lack of details).

Regards,

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hey, Andrew:
For curiosity's sake who were the top ten scoring LW pilots you mentioned in your post?

thanks

NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi,

The question of whether it is good for a few pilots to dominate the scoring could be argued about for hours without a definitive answer.

The British and Germans in North Africa were opposites in this regard, with the Germans relying on a handful of aces, and the British relying on many pilots gaining a few victories each.

Nick, I did have the ten high-scoring German pilots listed somewhere, but can't find the list. Sorry.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

"You'll never silence the voice of the voiceless" - Rage Against The Machine

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

I really can't agree with you Andrew. The top ten pilots you mention were the peak of the iceberg. As a ship runs into the peak of the iceberg, there still needs to be a solid base beneath the peak for the iceberg to damage the unlucky ship. There were many other able pilots that were skilled enough to down enemy aircraft and formed the base of the LW.

Reading the debate about how good or bad the attacking LW pilots were I am curious about the skill of the Spitfire pilots. They got bounced and lost two of their number in the first attack. Than they got themselves boxed by two enemy aircraft. Even if they were still in six. This really doesn't remind me of experienced fighter pilots! If my reasoning is correct, I don't think that we need two of the top ten LW aces to bag them.

Another question that keeps bouncing in my head is, what if there were two pairs attacking? The successful bounce, than a frantic defence, possibly inexperienced Spitfire pilots. Could it be that there were 4 109s Boom 'n' Zooming them? It's not that hard to lose sight of an enemy aircraft in a fight. I know, it's unlikely but I am just thinking aloud. :)

Cheers,

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Lwulf:

Well...I may be only guessing but I got the impression (also known as ASSUMING--and we all know what assuming can do!) that the Spits were quite rare & therefore important to the theater and the pilots assigned to them would at least have SOME experience-either in Western Europe or Malta, maybe...
AND I do recall some fragments of another effort to find out the players of this encounter...The person's name I don't remember--he may have been a regular here who either has left or passed away...the one thing I DO recall (vaguely) is that Muenchenberg claimed a spit on the day in question--so...that's why I tended to lean towards it being JG77

NickM

NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

On a hunch, I checked on Kacha's Luftwaffe Page...And well, well...Kacha's website HAS Muenchenberg's victory tally: AND this is the one I think it is: on November 9, 1942, Muenchenberg claimed 2 Spit V's:

117 9.11.1942 15:07 Spitfire Stab/JG 77 E Buq Buq; Spitfire V of 92 Sqn, RAF flown by F/Sgt Blades

- 9.11.1942 - Spitfire w.b. Stab/JG 77

I'm not too sure what 'w.b.' stands for but as a vic it was NOT confirmed; as for Buq Buq, I'm not too sure where that is either but I'll go out on a limb & guess it's near the frontlines during the time of the Alamein battles--BUT I am NOT sure; Nor am I TOTALLY sure the date is quite right for Nomis's 'around/before the battles at Alamein'---but so far, it's the best I've gotten

NickM

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi,

w.b. means "wirksam beschossen" - damaged.

Regards

Robert

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

If those were experienced pilots than they put up a poor show on that day. Anyway, with experienced I didn't meant how much battle experience they had but how effective they were in combat. I am sorry if I offended you with my writing. I am not a history buff but someone interested in air to air combat.

Cheers,

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Lwulf:

Oh, no offense was taken--not at all...although given the performance of 92 sqdr's patrol, it might have been reasonable to assume a lack of operational experience...but unless we can actually pin down the date/time/pilots we may never really know...

NickM

PS: I also assumed that the REALLY inexperienced pilots would have been put in a P40 or Hurricane equipped squadron!

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

BUMP!

With the publishing of Shores' new volume, I shall examine this question again.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Hi Nick

I didn't see the original enquiry back in 2005 - not sure if I had joined TOCH!

However, should you not find anything conclusive in Chris' latest tome, I thought that I should mention that I helped Leo Nomis write his memoirs (of his time with the Israelis in 1948/49) and included some details of his RAF service (the book is "The Desert Hawks" published in 1998)

Leo had several combats with Bf109s whilst with 92 Squadron. On 7 January 1943, he claimed a Bf109 probable for the loss of two 92 Sqn Spits; next day, 8 January, he claimed a Bf109 shot down.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

OK; after re-reading the second volume of Shores' new volume...sadly the fight between the two ME109 pilots & the Spits still remains a mystery.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Nick,

I'm pretty sure the recollection of Leo Nomis in his account in "The Eagles' War" by Vern Haugland refers to the engagement of January 7.1943. Two Spitfires of 92 Sq were reported MIA, F/S T.R. Broomhall MIA and Sgt H. Patterson baled out, both at 1245-1250.

In the record, F/O Nomis claimed a Bf109 at 1250-1335. In his account, he mentions four casualties but I always take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt.

On the German side, the Luftwaffe had some well known Jadgfliegern making 3 Spitfire claims: Hptm Anton Hackl at 1145, Fw. Ernst Wilhelm Reinert at 1203 and Lt. Lutz Wilhelm Burkhart at 1205. All were Ritterkreuz holders and were excellent fighter pilots.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Thanks! And an Anton Hackl connection to boot. Yeah being up against those three (assuming that there were only JG 77 pilots three involved)-you'd definitely have your hands full--interesting:I checked Kacha's Experten website (Reinert is not on it) but Hackl's record doesn't list a vic on January 7 1943, but Burkhart does: 2 km SSE of a place called Buerat, which I guess is in Tunisia.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Actually:
Buerat, or Buerat el Hussoun (Arabic: بويرات الحسون‎), is a village in western Libya, some 90 km (56 mi) west of Sirte

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Thanks;

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Ultimately it occurred to me that, based on what I have read, fighting outnumbered was a regular event, so it seems that even outnumbered by and (probably) with technical parity on the part of the WDAF, the jagdwaffe pilots seemed to always have the edge based on their experience and/or their self confidence.

Re: Me's vs Spits over North Africa: Who were those guys?
 

Thanks; Buerate had less of an Arab sound to it and more of a 'Berber' sound that one finds in Tunisia & Algeria.


NM