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DunkBM 6th February 2009 15:52

Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Which of all the luftwaffe pilots would you all say represented the true image of the WW2 German Fighter Pilot and why?

DunkBM 6th February 2009 16:08

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I could change that a bit....who is the most interesting Luftwaffe pilot and why?

Jim P. 6th February 2009 16:27

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Heinz Bar - flew throughout the war on all fronts in virtually every type of single engined fighter the Germans had up to and including the 262, and survived.

DunkBM 6th February 2009 16:30

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Good candidate - was on my list. But what about Marseille?

Dean M. Wick 6th February 2009 16:47

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Greetings: What about Addi Glunz of JG26? Not even close to the highest scorer's, but with the exception of approx. 3 Russian claims, all of his Victories were claimed in the West. Another point is that in a career that spanned most of the war, he was never actually shot down! Wait a minute....I suppose that would probably take him out of the "most representative" category, as very few Luftwaffe pilots could make that claim. My 2 cents worth anyway! Cheers. Dean.

DunkBM 6th February 2009 16:51

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Good point and he was on my radar too. Wasn't he very tall??

Robert Forsyth 6th February 2009 18:14

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
There were many Ritterkreuz handed out to the Transportflieger. Their flying skills, mission profiles (Crete, Stalingrad and other pockets in Russia, etc – usually without defensive armament), length of service and accomplishments are often astounding and overshadowed by the Jagdflieger.

Robert Forsyth

harrison987 6th February 2009 18:30

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I would take out all the "kill" stats, and who flew what aircraft, how many missions, etc., and look at a Lufwaffe piliot as a human being, and the emotions involved during those 6 years...

That said...

Franz Stigler

Escorted a B-17 to the North Sea instead of shooting it down. Was awarded for his heroic act decades later.

Flew the Me109 and Me262 in combat...not very high in the kill category...but I think "kills" should not even be in the equation when finding a "true representation" of a Luftwaffe pilot. After all what "defines" a pilot? My answer would be his actions and reactions throughout those 6 years.

Stigler always told me that as a RULE, all German pilots would count parachutes that came out of bombers and fighters to make sure everyone made it out okay...they would also share their flying experiences/stories and occasionally have dinner with other (America) pilots who were captured. There was a big camaraderie between pilots on all sides...

There are many untold stories...pilots who never survived...so I think 1 pilot should stand out and speak for those who could not...

That would be Stigler.

He was the best representative as his documented actions throughout the war showed how "human" the German pilots (and Germans in General) really were, as opposed to the negative propaganda they received.


Mike

ChrisS 6th February 2009 18:53

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Lutzow for the Jagdwaffe. Fought from Spain almost to end from Bf 109 B to Me 262, regretably meeting his kismet at the end of the war.

I am still thinking about Stuka and Kampflieger- so many over 500 missions!!!!!!

Chris

John Manrho 6th February 2009 21:45

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I would rather choose one of those very experienced Schwarmführer that started in the West in 1941/1942, helped all those newcomers to get a grip of that overwhelming strain in 1944, ended as Staffelführer and finally found his end in the final battles of 1944/1945.....I choose Leutnant Alwin Doppler, 2./JG 11. In 112 missions 32 Viermot....killed on 1.1.1945.

John

Robert Forsyth 6th February 2009 21:45

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Mike,

Very interesting. I met Franz Stigler on a number of occasions (also on one occasion he insisted I conduct a telephone interview at 3 am in the morning). However, I will always remember, in what is perhaps a delicious touch of irony, he once told me he was planning to write a book. With a big grin on his face he said, 'I'm going to call it "Fighter Pilots of the World.... and other Famous Liars'." (!!!!)

(His words - not mine!).

Robert Forsyth

DunkBM 6th February 2009 21:49

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Good responses thanks. I agree about all the negative press the German's often get. Most of the books I have read suggest they are generally at least as sporting as any other pilots. It appears that most of the Luftwaffe weren't really interested in politics either, they just wanted an excuse to fly like many of their allied counterparts.

Nick Beale 6th February 2009 23:59

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
The most representative fighter pilot in most air forces would be the one who never shot anything down.

When it comes to interesting, mightn't it sometimes be what someone had seen, rather than what he'd done that made him interesting?

ChrisS 7th February 2009 00:00

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
My understanding was that the British regarded the Luftwaffe as very indoctrinated and as such treated them with greater security then Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine prisoners. I recently met a chap of 84, amazingly still serving as Chaplain to the Sea Cadets who during the war served as a prison camp guard. He told me the unofficial POW camp 'pecking order' went Waffen SS, Paratroopers, Luftwaffe, U-Boatcrews, Wehrmacht and lastly the softest Kriegsmarine.

harrison987 7th February 2009 00:00

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DunkBM (Post 80955)
Good responses thanks. I agree about all the negative press the German's often get. Most of the books I have read suggest they are generally at least as sporting as any other pilots. It appears that most of the Luftwaffe weren't really interested in politics either, they just wanted an excuse to fly like many of their allied counterparts.

Exactly!

:)

ChrisS 7th February 2009 00:16

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Sorry chaps I just don't buy this 'they were just decent blokes like our boys' stuff.

Most Germans under the age of 20 in 1939 had over 6 years of service in Nazi political youth movements of some sort especially those who had glider training. Nazism wound it's evil coils around the the very fabric of German life, books, education, radio, voluntary organisations etc etc there was no way anybody escape it's all-pervasive influence. Most of the Luftwaffe was heavily indoctrinated from the top downwards this only began to crack as the true nature of Nazism began to become evident, and only then when defeat and the falibility of Hitler was plain for all to see.

What an individual serving in the Luftwaffe may have privately believed and thought in 1944-5 bore little relationship to the politically charged war-machine of the victorious Luftwaffe of 1939-40. Stripped of Nazism then any human being can call themselves decent and honorable, but first we had to strip them of it!! Let's never forget here on this forum, that the Luftwaffe and its men were the tool of a cruel evil regime intent on the subdugation of the civilised world who thought nothing of the murder of millions of individuals and the enslavement of whole nations. The fact that a number of Luftwaffe units and individuals behaved with humanity and respect does not redeem the monsterous barbarity of the organisation as a whole.

Sorry about the rant but .........

I still favour Lutzow, I gather he turned away from Nazism, as did Molders I believe, sad they both died for its cause....

Brian Bines 7th February 2009 00:30

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Seenot. pilot Hpt.Karl Born, who flew through the war and who briefly carried out mercy missions under RAF escort after the German surrender.

Jim P. 7th February 2009 02:07

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I suppose upon reflection Bar is not particularly 'representative' because he was a very successful pilot wherever he happened to be flying. Given that then someone like Klaus Faber might fit the bill - only had a few claims, flew from 39-45 and survived. On the other hand, the fact that he survived is not really representative either. The vast majority of LW pilots, for one reason or another, had very short careers. But in this the LW is not necessarily unique - its probably safe to say most of the losses for all combatants were of relatively inexperiened pilots, the survivors were generally the exception and became the aces. Another item that is probably worth mentioning is that in reviewing the LW losses, its always struck me as extraordinary how many of the 'experten' were lost due to accidents versus combat. What does the DunkBM consider representative?

John Vasco 7th February 2009 11:00

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Chris,
I understand all what you say, and respect your right to say it, but doesn't this sound a bit like the troops of our glorious British Empire...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisS (Post 80964)
the tool of a cruel evil regime intent on the subdugation of the [un]civilised world who thought nothing of the murder of millions of individuals and the enslavement of whole nations.

Oh yeah, you can throw in the slave trade to America for good measure also. I don't believe we (British) can claim any moral high ground given our past.

What you actually talk about in your post is indoctrination on a scale never before seen, particularly of children in their formative years. And don't forget that from the poverty and no hope of the 1920s, a regime came along which, on the surface, appeared to offer a better life. We now know that that was a smokescreen for other things planned, but did the ordinary Joe in the street have any idea of the Nazi party's master plan? I would suggest probably not. And once the regime was in power, ordinary people had no chance of dislodging it. Think about it, it took the combined power of the USA, the Soviet Empire and the British Empire to bring it down.

One might find a recent parallel in the British Government's insistence that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, therefore a legitimate reason to invade that country. 100% lies (and Bush and Blair knew it), and the result was that there are now many families of soldiers mourning here and in the US as a result of the lies perpetrated by Bush and Blair, and countless thousands of Iraqis dead also. Bush & Blair were the biggest threats to world stability in recent times, simply because of the quest for oil, not any higher ideal. If they had higher ideals they would have gone after Mugabe...

One can only speak as one finds, and having met quite a few former Luftwaffe personnel, I found most of them to be ordinary, decent, people (there was the odd prick).

As you say, Chris, sorry about the rant...

Ruy Horta 7th February 2009 11:28

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I'll throw some oil on the fire.

First I find the original question pointless without a proper context.

Indeed just looking at Jagdflieger is part of the Luftwaffe's problem, certainly in its offensive phase it was the (dive) bomber who carried the offensive, or the reconnaissance or transport pilot who went unnoticed.

Second

Our "boys vs their boys" and the Nazi movement.

With hind sight or some "popular" contamination with Communists and Al Quaida (etc, "the tag"), it is easy to see a Nazi as something different to us decent people. He is part of that monstrous machine that burned books, gassed millions of Jews and slaughtered more millions in its war of aggression.

By using the word Nazi, we de-humanize or demonise the enemy, who apart from his possible political believes was a GERMAN. But saying/writing that you killed a German soldier, airman or civilian doesn't sounds as great as saying/writing that you killed a Nazi.

Why should a pilot with a Nazi upbringing be less of a human? One might say that one who believed and fought for the Nuremberg racial laws was evil, yet can you honestly claim that those fine southern boys in the US AAF didn't (at least in part) believe in their segregation laws? Yes, there is a BIG difference between the two in practice, but is there in theory?

Moelders the Gentleman of the Jagdwaffe, often praised for his unpolitical and religious stance, was if we read Kurt Braatz, a staunch believer in Hitler as the Fuehrer and savior of Germany. Does that mean that we must brand Moelders a Nazi fanatic?

Having finished the Moelders biography I had the chance of purchasing a relatively cheap copy of Theo Osterkamp's Durch Hohen und Tiefen jagt ein Herz, another example of a Gentleman in the Luftwaffe, yet he simply admits that he believed in Hitler as the answer for Germany. Again, does that make him a Nazi fanatic?

Were those young men (boys) from the 12th SS Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" who to all accounts fought a tough battle in Normandy which earned the respect of most of those who engaged them, simply Nazi fanatics and therefor lesser men?

Third

What Stigler did was perhaps a grand gesture, it was also stupid. I wonder if he ever thought about the consequences of letting an experienced bomber crew have another go at bombing?! Being a gentleman in war doesn't always mean that you are doing the right thing.

If Stigler wanted be a gentleman, he would have been better off if he selected a fellow fighter pilot from the other side of the hill to escort home.

Not judging the man, for I have not earned the right to do so, just the deed.

Last, in answer to the original query.

Want to hear my most representative Luftwaffe pilot: unnamed.

Snautzer 7th February 2009 13:06

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta (Post 80978)
I'll throw some oil on the fire.



What Stigler did was perhaps a grand gesture, it was also stupid. I wonder if he ever thought about the consequences of letting an experienced bomber crew have another go at bombing?! Being a gentleman in war doesn't always mean that you are doing the right thing.

I kinda agree but i cant help thinking that this would make it ok for an allied flyer to shoot the chutes.Indeed it should have been a priority. Not very heroic but it would make war time sence

harrison987 7th February 2009 18:25

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Well...

It is against the Rules of Armed Conflict to shoot at parachutes from planes. I know the US Pilots did it, and anyone who would do that is just as bad as the next person you want to call "evil".

Yeah..of course Stigler thought about it. He would have been SHOT ON THE SPOT IF ANYONE FOUND OUT!!! The "right decision" is ALWAYS the human decision. Hmmm...let's seee....shoot at a crippled B-17 that had 50% of it's crew dead, no one shooting at him, and running on 3 engines...or do the HUMAN thing. I would have made the same decision. if the RIGHT thing is too "kill everyone possible", then clearly a person with a viewpoint like that should never be in the military, and not someone I would want by my side.

The uprising of Nazism was due to an EXTREMELY charismatic leader, and in the beginning stages did not have the same, "immoral" values as we focus on now. Germany was falling apart, and the people needing something to believe in as people were starving and business were failing. To judge ALL Germans and pilots as all being "Nazi's" is an uneducated statement. Fear drove most of these people to stir in one direction.

John pointed out that there are far more atrocities done by other countries for longer periods of time. The British Empire had far more atrocities for a LONGER period of time than Germany ever did.

I remember a US vet telling a story about the Ardennes...

This captured US soldier (amongst others) was being marched down an icy road. A German officer kept having his Kubelwagon drive back and forth from the front of the line to the rear...honking at all US troops to move out of the way. I think he was just doing it to make them mad. After many passings, this one US troop decided, 'screw it", and did not move out of the way on one of the last many attempts. The German officer was so mad the US troop did not move, the Kubelwaagon pulled over, he went over to the US Troop, and put a gun to his head. The US troop being more angry than anything did not move an inch. As the German officer began to pull the trigger, a large "clack" from a machine gun could be heard. Looking left, he saw the MG that just cocked was atop a Panzer, and the gun was pointed at the OFFICER! It was an SS Tank. The SS officer pulled an MG on the German officer, yelling at him for having a gun to this US troops head. Don't remember what he said to him, something about how they are soldiers, not murderers.

True story.

So is that German SS officer dumb? Should he have let the other officer shoot the US troop? After-all, it was mentioned that Stiger was dumb for letting the B-17 go...what would happen if these US troops escape? CRAP!! Better kill them all now, then to have them escape and be soldiers fighting against us again!!

How do you look at the massacre in the Ardennes? Where 3 DOZENS of captured and defenceless US troops were gunned down by the SS?? Was that, "okay" because it better to kill the enemy than have them escape and fight another day?

Jesus...

No matter "what" peoples beliefs are, EVERYONE is human...that includes Hitler...and EVERYONE, no matter what they have done, is ALWAYS forgivable...

That is the main basis of Judiasm..."everything and everyone is forgivable" - that includes Hitler.

Stigler, along with MOST Germans all felt the same about the war and had the same beliefs about how WRONG Hitler was...wasn't there 50+ attempts on Hitler's life since 1942?

Mike

Ruy Horta 7th February 2009 19:36

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Apples and oranges.

That bomber can't be equated to either POWs or airmen in their chutes, it is as simple as that.

Would that SS Panzer have escorted a damaged enemy tank back to its own lines? No, it would probably have put in another canon round...

Again, I do not judge the man, for I have no right to do so, but I find the deed questionable, even if today we honor such a thing. What does it mean if the (remaining) crew flew other bombing missions killing countless German civilians?

perhaps I am simple, but I'd rather kill that crew than feel guilt about letting it go to fight another day...

That bomber if you like it or not was still an enemy combattant.

Have you ever heard of US fighter pilots escorting damaged enemy bombers back?

Again, there may be some room for this romantic stuff between fighter pilots, but bombers, no...I don't buy that.

Nick Beale 7th February 2009 23:25

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by harrison987 (Post 81005)
The British Empire had far more atrocities for a LONGER period of time than Germany ever did.
Mike

I am no defender of the British Empire (or any other empire) but please, get real. Yes the British Empire lasted longer than the Third Reich (as did every European Empire I can think of right now) but, are you seriously suggesting that there was a deliberate racial extermination policy with dedicated industrial killing facilities? Or that so many people were killed in so short a time? I don't think the Belgians managed that in the Congo, even.

Jim Oxley 8th February 2009 01:00

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Why look for any "reasonableness" of actions in war?

War is the ultimate expression of human madness. Where else will you find young men TOLD to go out an kill as many of the enemy as possible. That it's a good, loyal, right thing to do?

Most humans are not natural killers. Most have to be conditioned and encouraged to do so - and that goes for all sides in a war, any war. It's a major reason why disgusting racial slurs like Nips, Huns, Towel heads, Wogs, Bolshie, Commie, Boche et al are so widespread in the Military. It de-humanises the enemy. Yet given that men are basically good why be surprised if, in amongst the madness, a man (eg Stigler) finds that he rebels. Even for a short time?

Everyone thought (or chose to) that they were in the right during WWII. Most do in any war. The French certainly thought so during the Revolutionary and Empire wars of the late 1700's and early 1800's.

All that aside :) my choice for a fairly typical Luftwaffe fighter pilot would be Heinz Knoke. An ardent believer in Germany and the Nazi Party (as the saviour's of a downtrodden country), Boy Scout and Hitler Youth, called up in October 1939 and who flew most of the war. Only to be injured in a mine explosion in a car in '44 outside a small Czech village.

David N 8th February 2009 04:24

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Oxley (Post 81023)
Why look for any "reasonableness" of actions in war?

War is the ultimate expression of human madness. Where else will you find young men TOLD to go out an kill as many of the enemy as possible. That it's a good, loyal, right thing to do?

Most humans are not natural killers. Most have to be conditioned and encouraged to do so - and that goes for all sides in a war, any war. It's a major reason why disgusting racial slurs like Nips, Huns, Towel heads, Wogs, Bolshie, Commie, Boche et al are so widespread in the Military. It de-humanises the enemy. Yet given that men are basically good why be surprised if, in amongst the madness, a man (eg Stigler) finds that he rebels. Even for a short time?

Everyone thought (or chose to) that they were in the right during WWII. Most do in any war. The French certainly thought so during the Revolutionary and Empire wars of the late 1700's and early 1800's.

All that aside :) my choice for a fairly typical Luftwaffe fighter pilot would be Heinz Knoke. An ardent believer in Germany and the Nazi Party (as the saviour's of a downtrodden country), Boy Scout and Hitler Youth, called up in October 1939 and who flew most of the war. Only to be injured in a mine explosion in a car in '44 outside a small Czech village.

For a time, Heinz Knoke was considered to be the typical Luftwaffe fighter pilot. His book was published in the United States in 1954 a few months before Galland's "the First and The Last." I once looked up the review of "I Flew For The Fuhrer" in Time magazine. Time's reviewer indeed wrote that Knoke's book showed what the Luftwaffe's fighter pilots were like.

FalkeEins 8th February 2009 12:22

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
..and it took a while to 're-educate' him post-war. His memoir hasn't been available in a German edition for years. No-one mention Rudel or Dahl or Herrmann yet...or too 'ugly' for sensibilities here....bomber/Schlacht fighter aces & commanders, innovators, aggressively pro-regime, etc etc, in trouble with the German authorities post-war (Rudel, Dahl at least) while Herrmann was a classically educated poet & 'ramming' advocate...
my choice as most 'representative' though; a Transport or Kampfflieger turned fighter 'ace' such as Stamp, Wischnewski, Gapp or Zorner...

David N 8th February 2009 16:27

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
It has been many years since I read the Time review, but I recall it saying that Knoke's book had a "scum of Nazi notions" and that Luftwaffe fighter pilots were a "morose" bunch. On the other hand another review of "I Flew For The Fuhrer" that I found reported that American 8th Air Force veterans said that Knoke's descriptions of combat with American bombers and fighters were accurate.

Robert Forsyth 8th February 2009 19:27

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FalkeEins (Post 81046)
my choice as most 'representative' though; a Transport or Kampfflieger turned fighter 'ace' such as Stamp, Wischnewski, Gapp or Zorner...


August Lambert? Or August Hachtel perhaps? Both real Luftwaffe 'warriors' having transitioned from the Schlachtflieger to the Jagdwaffe and with impressive military careers.

RF

VtwinVince 8th February 2009 23:27

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I'm not impartial, so I'm going with my uncle, Major Dr. Albrecht Ochs, who started with the Fliegertruppe in 1917, shot an attacking fighter off the tail of his CO, Hauptmann Kastner, early in 1918 and scored a further four victories whilst CO of 9. JG 3 during the BoB. According to accounts from former members of his staffel, including Franz Achleitner, Walter Schuck, Helmut Rueffler and Ernst Boerngen, his primary concern was always the welfare of his pilots, to whom he tried to impart the wisdom gained in flying combat in two world wars. He was one of the few Luftwaffe pilots to score confirmed victories in both conflicts, and flew combat until April, 1945. Never promoted beyond Major after 1941 due to a personality conflict with then-CO Moelders, he was described by good friend Guenther Luetzow as "enorm Flugfrisch fuer sein Alter", which roughly translates to "incredibly good pilot for his age". I can't think of a better accolade. And I agree with a previous mention, Franz Stigler, whom I knew for years and who was a good comrade of my uncle's in North Africa.

Franek Grabowski 15th February 2009 23:33

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I thought that the thread should be forgotten, but as the general subject reappears in various forms, I believe it should be refreshed.
I concur with Chris S and I am terrified. I do not like PC but some thesis presented here are a so called 'nazi revisionist propaganda'. In short it is an old song, they were brave, they were chivalrous, they did not know, they were following orders, they had no mean of protest, etc. All of this could be debunked, given a little bit of good will and research. Mind you that Allied intelligence did a constant monitoring of morale of German society, this including analysis of letters send home by soldiers. This shows perfectly extent of knowledge about crimes, as well as decline of morale in 1943, when Germany started to loose the war. Informations are available either from period publications (like RAF Intel Bulletins) or from archives, I believe TNA should have a good file on it. They leave no shade of doubt, those interested knew perfectly well, what is going around, and the one must have been dumb, not to know that there is something fishy about it.
It is worth to note German behaviour in Poland. The war started here, so theoretically participating soldiers should not be influenced by combat stress and increasing brutality. Despite that, number of crimes committed by German soldiers (and it was mostly Wehrmacht's and Luftwaffe's war) is astonishing. Certainly there were individuals, who opposed it, and did not like it, but they were individuals indeed. En masse it was a machine of death and terror, and while I am not against research of particular men, and even sympathy towards them, I am deeply disgusted by removing their stories from the brute context. It is not only excusing of crimes, or lack of taste, but especially lack of common sense.
While talking individuals, I must stress one particular point. While reading about various criminals and degenerates, both nazi and communistic, it was a strucking thing to find out, they were often so nice and friendly fellas. Read about Mengele, how friendly he was towards children, so they freely called him uncle! I bet, if he survived to this day, you would be claiming he could not have been a nazi, and all of this is just a propaganda.
Finally, I find it deeply offensive the general approach here towards Allied soldiers. Certainly various countries had troubled history in their long term of existence, and certainly some decisions undertaken during the war should be discussed. It is obvious, that some Allied soldiers committed crimes or did other shameful things, sometimes because they were bad people, sometimes because of emotions. Nonetheless such behaviour was minor and never accepted by majority of servicemen.
One old good sample for this.
It happened in 1944 that in the heat of a briefing, one Allied general said something, that could have been an encouragement to strafe civilians. Airmen were so disgusted, that in a short time a statement was issued, that in no way this speech should be interpreted this way. Those interested may find a reproduction of original paper in Spit & Polish book.
I find it especially shameful, that such words happen on a site supposed to be a place for knowledgeable and educated people.

yogybär 18th February 2009 14:05

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
To the topic:
If I should look out for a pilot, I would opt for a successfull guy, who really did a great job. A kind of exemplary for other pilots, like a "represantative" should be. Who would send the most normal of his personal to a "representation" :) ?.

My choice:

Gerhard Barkhorn

- he flew like a work animal with his >1.100 missions
- he was very successfull
- he never had the strange masses of kills other super-aces filed
- and apparently was "clean" enough to get into the Bundesluftwaffe

To another topic:
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisS (Post 80964)
Sorry chaps I just don't buy this 'they were just decent blokes like our boys' stuff.

Most Germans under the age of 20 in 1939 had over 6 years of service in Nazi political youth movements of some sort especially those who had glider training. Nazism wound it's evil coils around the the very fabric of German life, books, education, radio, voluntary organisations etc etc there was no way anybody escape it's all-pervasive influence. Most of the Luftwaffe was heavily indoctrinated from the top downwards this only began to crack as the true nature of Nazism began to become evident, and only then when defeat and the falibility of Hitler was plain for all to see.

I support this. I am german, and believe me, I thought a lot about "how these ancestors of mine were". The main question inside this for me is:

- Where they all racists and militarists?

My answer is: Maybe not all, but most of them were racist. They were nationalists (like many people today are), but not militarists.

I just spent a week together with a relative who was born in 1913. It is fascinating to hear her talk about her grandparents (who were born ca. 1860!) and about former times she lived through.

But it is really strange, when she starts talking about "Jews, the annihilation of our culture and other races". She has a "Weltanschauung" (picture of the world) which still reflects the racism and a fight between different groups, at least that "somebody" wants to destroy Germany.

On the other hand: These generations had to change their way of life (and partly, thinking) so strong... there was a lot of "Antisemitismus" also in other european countries, and they did partly support the german holocoust-system. And as the grew up in such a totalitary and media-controlling state, I cannot point my finger to these people born in the 1920ies.

PS: For sure we are definitely also indoctrinated, see stuff like:
- "bio-weapons" in Iraq as THE argument to attack
- the "axis of evil", Al-Quaida etc.
- the "good USA", who protect the world from XYZ
- "Democracy"
- maybe even "CO2 will kill our climate"?
Let's see what lies in front of us all...

ChrisS 18th February 2009 19:19

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Like Franek I had hoped that this kind of topic had died out but I see almost (and I mean almost) neo-facist tendencies in some of the writing here.

REALITY CHECK

Lets be absolutely plain: the nazis (and their allies) were thoroughly evil, and because of them almost 60,000,000 people died. That's 60,000,000 people who wanted to live and enjoy life, who were just like you and me, and like your mother, your father, brother, sister and children. Many would still be alive today. Most of these 60,000,000 were non combatants. The nazis themslves were directly responsible for the deaths of over 6,000,000 innocent civilians in unjustified state-controlled racist genocide.
Of the 50,000,000 that died in the western wars the German armed forces directly resoponsible for their deaths either by action or inaction. Apart from directly causing death by military action the luftwaffe as part of the German armed forces by enthusiastically engaging in aggressive war enabled the axis to conquor the enemies of the nazi state and thus prolonged the war so that the genocide could continue unabated.

No amount of excellent looking aircraft, wonderful aircraft colour schemes, superb uniforms, admiration for military prowess makes up for the basic truth that these men were responsible for the deaths of 50,000,0000 people. If you disagree with this statement I humbly suggest that you make it a priority to visit either your own countries Holocaust museum, if you belong to an allied nation your local war memorial and take a look at the names on the stone, or visit as I have Oradour-Sur-Glane in France or maybe even Auschwitz or easiest go take out Schindlers List on DVD rental (if you can't cry at someplace in this most amazing film then........). The point Iam trying to make is don't let our interest hide th truth about the nazis and the Luftwaffe.

I guess we all here have an interest in the Luftwaffe, but please take a reality check

Chris

krichter33 19th February 2009 00:34

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
There were over 18 million Germans who served in the Wehrmacht during the War. I guess we are supposed to believe that the majority of these men were war criminals and committed atrocities. My God! With so many murderers running around it is a wonder there were any innocent civilians left in Europe... :rolleyes:

Jim P. 19th February 2009 03:56

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Give it rest. These gentlemen make very valid points, and I have to say I've mentally wrestled with this argument many times on my own. My own political beliefs tend to run to the side of being very liberal, and I've have spent way to much energy being very po'ed about over the last 8 years seeing my own country having to deal with the very disastrous policies pushed by very right wing, no nothing politicians and their media allies, and the 'with us or against us' bs that went with it. Notice how that's disappeared in a month.

In the end, on the one hand, I'm still fascinated by the Lw and other parts of the German armed forces in WWII, but never forget they were part of what was ultimately a very repressive, murderous regime. And I'm from the U.S. While we were certainly there, so to speak, guys like Franek, who's from Poland, and Chris, who I suspect is from England, have a very different perspective than me because their countries were occupied and/or a target of the bombs. I can say I understand, but in reality there is no way I can relate to what happened in either country.
On the otherhand, I believe that trying to erase the Nazi regime from history, which seems to be the case over the last 30-40 years, also erases the lessons that should be learned and remembered by us all. And to be honest, I think that history education, or lack thereof, is a big reason why my own country was headed down the road it was on the last 8+ years. Nobody wants to say the word, but if you look up the the definition of fascist, and see where this country was headed - if one is truly honest with themselves, then its as plain as day.
Where's that next beer -

yogybär 19th February 2009 10:16

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim P. (Post 81702)
Where's that next beer

Cheers, Jim ;).

Good that you found the humour exit!

ChrisS 19th February 2009 14:39

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by krichter33 (Post 81697)
There were over 18 million Germans who served in the Wehrmacht during the War. I guess we are supposed to believe that the majority of these men were war criminals and committed atrocities. My God! With so many murderers running around it is a wonder there were any innocent civilians left in Europe... :rolleyes:

Sad to see a modern day German take this kind of tone.

As I said before we (sorry the Allies) beat them and took away their ability to make war. Had we not done so the 18 million Wehrmacht would have enabled the Nazis (and to have contributed some of their own Wehrmacht orchestrated atrocities as well) to murder all of Europe's Jews and Gypsy with a long-term goal of working to death in slavery all the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe (Poles, Slovenes, Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians Czechs - sorry if I missed any -the Nazis wouldn't have). The Nazis couldn't have done it without the Wehrmacht. The Wehrmacht would not have been victorious without the Nazis. The two are inexorably inter-wined. Sorry, what was hanging from the claws of the eagles on their hats, on their breasts on their belts ration books pay books even stamped on their socks and underwear and finally on so many, many of their graves?

Jim P.

I respect your well written and thought through post but I will not 'give it a rest' and I am not in favour of removing/airbrushing the Nazis from history, quite the opposite in fact. Nor am I a liberal, perish that thought, rather I am politically right-wing and very defiantly non-PC. You are correct in that I live in England. My mother lost ALL here childhood Friends in London's blitz. She also lost her family home and all the family possession's. The very road she was born in, in Battersea, South-London no longer exists today because of the massive destruction caused by Luftwaffe land mines. My Grandfather lost his job when the Gasworks he managed was destroyed. I could go on and on with my Fathers family wartime issues.... To this my day my country still bears the scars, financial, personal and emotional of the labour it took to crush the criminal military pride of Germany in two world wars. Compared to loses of say Russia, Poland and Yugoslavia our British deprivations were few.

I just get stirred up when I see posts by people who I believe have an secret admiration for Hitler and his ilk. On a Luftwaffe website very similar to this one a recent post was full of 'wows' and 'amazings' for a still surviving underground factory that built Me 262's at the wars end. One of the poster said he couldn't wait to go there and see what remained. If he knows that 6000 people died in building the wretched place he doesn't show it. 6000 slave labourers people like you and me. 6000 people. I didn't comment, perhaps I should?

Chris

Jan Gazda 19th February 2009 17:07

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
I must admit it is very funny to read such a passionate lecture of moral values from a member of a nation which invented the widespread use of concentration camps and under which enlightened reign around forty million India’s inhabitants have died in reoccurring famines under total indolence of the government. From this point of view the only difference between Nazi regime and British monarchy is just the fact that the British have got away with it.

With the distance of 60 years it is very convenient to make harsh judgments on individuals that had to make decisions under circumstances we can’t imagine. Obviously the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe were waging aggressive war and have committed countless atrocities and the Third Reich had brutally oppressed the minorities under their reign. I do not think anyone with common sense disputes that. The question is what real options an average soldier had. Mutiny? Defection? None of those promised very optimistic outcomes for the individual itself and its family. So they just kept fighting till the end.

However, I think this thread has drifted far away from its original topic ( which was pretty obscure anyway) and we should get back to discussing what “representative” means.

Jan

ChrisS 19th February 2009 17:59

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan Gazda (Post 81733)
I must admit it is very funny to read such a passionate lecture of moral values from a member of a nation which invented the widespread use of concentration camps and under which enlightened reign around forty million India’s inhabitants have died in reoccurring famines under total indolence of the government. From this point of view the only difference between Nazi regime and British monarchy is just the fact that the British have got away with it.

The question is what real options an average soldier had. Mutiny? Defection? None of those promised very optimistic outcomes for the individual itself and its family. So they just kept fighting till the end.

However, I think this thread has drifted far away from its original topic ( which was pretty obscure anyway) and we should get back to discussing what “representative” means.

Jan

The difference between the Nazis and the British Empire?? Please do tell which history books you have been reading? The invention of the British 'Concentration Camps' by liberal commentators bears no resemblance in form OR substance to the Nazi death camps. In case you have not realized Indians have died by the millions in famines before the British came and after we left. Point of fact: were it not for the construction of roads and railways throughout India still in use today, those famines would have been far, far worse. And the indifference? Not by the British but by the local indigenous rulers who were profiteering from the shortage of food. The very great good that came about from the British Empire, literacy and education, peace, greater life expectancy, justice systems, the establishment of indigenous middle classes, infrastructure, modern agriculture and industry seems to have been forgotten. Look at the awful state of ex British Africa now compared to when the benign British Empire was flourishing. Reality Check.

What could the German soldier have done? I agree a hard question. Obey orders of course, that seemed to be the stock answer when asked to account for heinous crimes. And whilst the victories rolled on, cheer along with the others, as von Stauffenberg, Beck, Von Kluge, Stulpnagel and most of the other July '44 putchists did. It took the resistance of the free world to 'turn' these fine gentlemen into activists. Where oh where do we see active voices of discent in the German Forces raised in repugnance of the crushing of countries like Norway, Holland and Denmark all of whom had expended considerable humanitarian aid to German following the Great War. No, because the German Officer Corps were steadfastly behind Adolf Hitler from day one all the way until things started to go wrong. For every jerrycan filled, bullet fired, rollbahn rail mended, bomb dropped, shell expended and torpedo loosed then the capacity of the Nazi oppression was either increased or upheld therefore every German soldier played a part in the genocide.

Oh I just recalled that an expresion/euphenism that apparently was very common in Germany during the war: it was a curious finger gesture that that began with the index finger making a circle in the air that gradually continued in an upwards direction simulating smoke going up a chimney. I gather this gesture could be made when somebody had disappeared, perhaps as a guest of the Gestapo, or when somebody had died or as a warning to somebody to stop doing something that could be construed as being anti-state or defeatist. Smoke going up the chimney from something burning? Maybe from a death camp's chimney? But the ordinary German soldier didn't know anything about the death camps? Did they?

Jim P. 19th February 2009 18:13

Re: Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?
 
Chris - was not in reference to your post, but to the same person you were responding too.


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