Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Hi, can anybody provide the usual loss details for the incident involving
Von Stutterheim on 22.6.40 with the Stab.st. KG77.
Im lead to believe Oblt Koch and Lt Gauder were part of the crew, if im not mistaken.
Any help would be appreciated.

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Concerning this loss, we have:

15.06.40 Gen.Maj., Kommodore KG 77 WIA badly, Do 17Z shot down by GC II/7 W of Neufchâteau, crash landed near Leurville 3:15 PM – treated at a field hospital at St. Dizier, airlifted to Berlin the next day but later died of injuries.
04.07.40 awarded Ritterkreuz.
†03.12.40 in Berlin from wounds.

Battle of France, Then and Now page 477 has some additional details.

shot down by Cdt. Mümler , S/Lt. Valentin, Sgt. Martin, Sgt. Passemard.

Oblt. G.Esch bailed out and landed slightly wounded.
Lt. R. Gaude also wounded.
Fw. H. Herrig bailed out but killed by fighters while hanging in his parachute
Fw. O. Jelinek was killed in the aircraft.

LdZ
DGS

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Good morning Doug,
many thanks for the confirmation of the demise of Von Stutterheim and additional detail.
I dont know where i got the date from, perhaps it was perhaps an update within the GQM6 loss lists?

Do you happen to have the crew functions detail or first names, or indeed anybody else looking at this who maybe might be able to help?

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

What is the source on claimants?

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Franek,

Source for claimants was Gillet VCF Vol.3 p142.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Polish sources indicate that Muemler shared his victory with Nowakiewicz. Perhaps Greg S can elaborate more on the topic, but there is a serious question of reliability of Gillet's list.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

That may well be so Franek, but can you recommend a better source for such details ?

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Gillet`s list is relying on unit`s history or unit`s official documents so please tell us these Polish sources, which are more reliable than unit`s history? Perhaps this is book of W.Krol wrote some dozens years after the war?

Robert

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Peter, thanks ever so much for the loss details, this helps enormously.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Peter, there were several publications on Polish AF in France, quite contrary to what certain self-acclaimed expert suggests. I will make aware of the thread Greg S, who is an author of a book on Polish fighters over France. The side note is the question of reliability of Gillet's lists.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

The book "Lost hopes" is out-of-dated and the author wants to re-write it. So please stop joking and give us these "reliable" Polish sources.

Robert

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

The author, quite contrary to you, spend a considerable time researching the topic, gathering documents (including French ones), interviewing veterans, etc. Thus the book was based on period documents, and the fact that the author wants to make it more up to date, and to add more informations, does not mean it is out dated. There is also another author, who did extensive research on the topic, and whom you did not mention, making the only reference to Wacław Król's books.
You are neither expert, researcher nor author, so I would suggest you to shut up, and let Greg S to speak on the subject.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

And I suggest you to take a look at Gillet`s book before you will write an opinion about it you great researcher, author and expert.
I don`t see that Grzegorz used so many French, German and British documents as Gillet. Perhaps if he would do this his book would more detailed.
Your opinion is rather one-sided and even Polish sources claims that this victory was a jointly success of few pilots. So please tell us your "reliable" Polish sources claiming that this was victory of Muemler and Nowakiewicz. And better stop to offend other people before it would be too late.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Grzegorz is not the only researcher of the campaign, but you fail to name the other one. Have you ever seen the latter's book? So perhaps you, the expert, do not know, that the other, apparently unreliable author credits the victory to both Muemler and Nowakiewicz, the latter omitted by Gillet? Is not it enough to start discussion about reliability of some sources? Or perhaps your point is that every Polish author and researcher is an idiot but you (assuming you are Polish)? As I wrote previously, you have nothing to add in the thread, so let's wait for Grzegorz.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Your are funny guy really. So tell us source, which gives credit for this claim to Muemler and Nowakiewicz?
I`m afraid that this person, which have nothing to add to this thread are you!
Peter asked you for sources and you are just jerking us around.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

There are two Polish sources of this combat wrote in England in 1940. Muemler wrote he destroyed Do 17 with Nowakiewicz and damaged another one alone while Nowakiewicz wrote he destroyed Do 17 alone.

I think nobody knows who really shot down Do 17 from KG 77. All pilots from GC II/7 who made the combat with group of Do 17s in this sortie should - in my opinion - have credit of destroyeing this aircraft. Overclaiming is normal during air combat. It's rather impossible to say who really shot down this aircraft today. All fireing but who hit?

The fact is the only one two-engine aircraft was shot down in this area at those time - it was von Stutterheim's Dornier. I'm sure this one was attacked by Nowakiewicz - he wrote in his raport he killed airman under parachute (he must be Fw. H. Herrig) and another one on the ground with collaboration of French pillots (he was probably von Stutterheim).

I think pilots of GC II/7 could shot up a Do 17 from KG 3 which bally landed at Trier-Euren too. But it really hard to say is it true.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Thank you Greg for generating some light on the subject rather than heat.

As you know, I already have your book The Lost Hopes and, indeed, have recommended it to others on this website though I confess that I have failed to take full account of its content on occasion. Despite the retrospective nature of the evidence, from all that has been said it now seems that Nowakiewicz could be added to those GCII/7 pilots involved with the Do17s of KG77 on June 15, 1940.

One small point, you are wrong to say that von Stutterheim's Dornier was the only one to fall in the area at the time, for Fw Schweiger's aircraft also came down '30 km NW of Neufchateau' during this action. However, it was clearly not that attacked by Mumler & Co. as its crew all remained on board.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Peter, as promised, you have a first hand source now. Thus the question of reliability of Gillet's book remains valid.
Robert, DIY.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

This first hand source is rather confusing. Muemler and Nowakiewicz could not destroy these at least three Do 17 alone (stab/KG77, 5./KG77 and 1./KG77, III./KG3 is questionable). Lt. Rudolf Gaude ( BO from stab/KG77 plane) recalls that he was attacked while on chute by two fighters, Josef Schwaiger from 5./KG77`s plane claims to be attacked by three French fighters, and the same formation was attacked also by GCII/2, which flown this mission together with GCII/7. Officialy there is no victory Muemler-Nowakiewicz and the reliabity of Nowakiewicz`s report is also questionable (he was not credited with individuall victory, didn`t follow his victim through whole action and Muemler is also writing something different). It`s strange that according to Polish sources out of formation of several pilots only Nowakiewicz and Muemler should engage the enemy bombers and the rest of fighters should be waiting for something? I think that actually many pilots fired at this German bombers and thus there were not individual victories. Gillet repeated this in his book because he used official French records and unit`s histories.
BTW Jiri Rajlich in his books claims that stab./KG77`s plane fell victim rather to GCII/2.

Robert

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Your post is irrelevant and serves no purpose. If Peter has any questions, he may ask directly Greg or Jiri Rajlich, whose knowledge is based on documents rather than wishful thinking.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Rather your posts are usually not reliable and useless.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Peter, nice to heard your words about "The Lost Hopes" but the book was published 8 years ago and I know it needs a lot of corrects. Therefore I'm preparing a new version of this book which will more than 2 times longer but I'm afraid it will publish in Polish only.

Polish documents usually were wrote after coming to England and most of them were memories based on Carnet Idividuel of the pilot. Therefore historian who based on this documents have to be very carefull. In fact "The Lost Hopes" was a sample of showing Polish point of view of Polish effort in French Campaign. Therefore there were not too much comperings with French and German sources.

You are right about losses of KG 77 near Neufchateau. My last post I wrote at work and I used my memory only. I'm at home now and I can check documents so I can say: my memory isn't so good as I was sure before ;)

Regards,

Greg

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Interesting to see how my post has developed!

Can anybody list the details surrounding Schwaiger's loss this day, apparentley came down 30km N.W Neufchateau.
Crew names and functions particularly welcome, to update my records for this day.
Id also welcome similar information as to the loss of Oblt Reuter's a/c the day before, from the same unit. Reuter was a veteran of the Polish campaign.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Here is what I have (at present):

5./KG77 Dornier Do17Z. Engaged by nine Moranes of GC II/2 between Bayon and Lunéville during sortie to attack columns between Épinal and Thaon-les-Vosges, and belly-landed 30 km north-west of Neufchâteau 3.15 p.m. FF Fw Josef Schweiger and BO Gefr Leonhardt Hopf both captured wounded, BM Fw Karl Zimmer and BF Uffz Jakob Anschau both captured unhurt – all later released. Aircraft 100% write-off.
On vacating the aircraft this crew was fired upon by French troops and two of them wounded, they were all roughly treated after capture.

Stab KG77 Dornier Do17Z. Shot down by Capt Huvet, Lt Durod, Adj Lachaux, and Sgt Quéguiner of GC II/5 during reconnaissance sortie south of Nancy and also hit by AA fire over Bricon. Crashed and exploded in forest near Braux-le-Châtel, west of Chaumont, 8.00 a.m. BO Oberlt Herbert Reuter, FF Fw Karl Dreier, and BM Uffz Anton Tix all killed, BF Fw Hugo Golombek believed baled out and captured unhurt – later released. Aircraft 100% write-off.

Steve, you will find all this information and much more besides in my book The Battle of France Then & Now published by After The Battle in 2008.

Re: Gen.Mjr.Wolf Von Stutterheim KG77
 

Peter many thanks for your information on KG77, and excerpts from your book The Battle of France Then & Now .

After a great deal of trouble, ive managed to order a copy today so i will be looking forward seeing your work in full.
Many thanks.

Best regs,
Steve.