Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hello!

Perhaps this is of interest for someone. Originally posted as query by Martti Kujansuu at Flightforum.fi -forum (in this Finnish-language thread: http://www.flightforum.fi/forum/inde...70631.900.html ) was this interesting photo:

http://www.palasuomenhistoriaa.net/k...slides/126.jpg
(as far as I could see this was the only German aircraft photo at the Pala Suomen historiaa -site)

This should be Leutenant Hans Lechte's mount - Bf 109 E-7 weisse 3, WNr. 5133 (not 5975 like I wrote first) - on his faithful mission May 9th, 1942. Hannu Valtonen's Luftwaffen pohjoinen rintama says Lecte parachuted but then went MIA. The victorious pilot was st. leutenant Kurzenkov from 78 IAP flying Hurricane.

The photo is said to be taken at Titovka airfield. Pretty remarkable landing without pilot, if the info given is correct. Plane looks almost intact.

I have no particular questions and the photo is served as a piece for Northern Airwar connoiseurs. Thanks have to also go towards Martti, because he found and posted the photo in the other forum first.


Cheers,
Kari

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi Kari,

I think this is "white 9" - there were few photos of this plane on E-bay in last two years.

Regards

Robert

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hello Kari,

According to my files Lechte went missing in WNr.5133
Bf 109E-3 WNr.5133 09.05.42 8./JG5 Lt. Hans Lechte (verm.), Luftkampf mit Hurricane, 3km Ö Titowka - 100% ws.3+ (E-7)

For WNr.5975, I have the following loss
Bf 109E-7 WNr.5975 10.05.42 5./JG5 Uffz. Heinz Bausch (verm.), Luftkampf, Ura Bucht - 100% ge.4+

best regards,
Tomi

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

...This should be Leutenant Hans Lechte's mount - Bf 109 E-7 weisse 3, WNr. 5975 - on his fateful mission May 9th, 1942...

Hello Kari,

"Weisse" (3 or 9) + does not fit to 8 Staffel.

III./JG 5:

7. Staffel = white
8. Staffel = black
9. Staffel = yellow

Regards,
Horst

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hello!

Robert, Tomislav & Horst. Please do not blame me of the data supplied. The plane is identified as "white 3" in the Finnish forum thread. Valtonen's list indeed gives the tactical number as "white 3", too. I took the WNr from his book too, but possibly from wrong row (have to check that when at home). Later losses in his list for 8./JG 5 give black tactical numbers if at all.

Messieurs Brekken and Sheppard, your comments?

Cheers,
Kari

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi, Kari

A terrible monday morning it is here in Norway, with icy roads (just witnessed a really bad traffic accident on my way to work...) and now you turn up with this 'enigma'.

Well, for one it seems that the TO or Ia of the rather new III. Gruppe wasn't quite up to standards when recording loss data for this period.

What really happened? Not that easy to know for sure, but it seems that the 8. Staffel (or pilots from 8. Staffel) did fly aircraft coded with white numerals even if they should have been black.

Examples are the one mentioned here, which should have been WNr 5133 as far as I can see, coded White 3 + (the NVM of Sommer, lost on 27.05.1942, also says WNr 5133, but this is commented on the original document as probably wrong, in the GenQu report for Sommer WNr 2023 is given), Goretzki a bit later with White 14 +.

I cannot offer a full explanation, but there are a few pointers that might give us a bit of help:

1. A large part of the technical personnel of 8. Staffel was killed in a Ju 52 accident during a transfer flight on April 22. 1942. It is thus likely that the 7. and 8. Staffel might have used the same personnel for maintenance and to get their aircraft ready.

2. In my opinion Hptm Scholz might have chosen to treat these units as a single fighting unit, even if they 'Truppendienstlich' as it is written in German belonged to 7. and 8. Staffel respectively. Both Staffeln had just arrived in their new area of operations (9. Staffel was not in the north), and it is totally possible that the commanding officers put together what they believed to be the best Rotten, Ketten and Schwärme for the job, regardless of which unit they belonged to technically. In fact there is strong evidence to support this in the personnel and aircraft strength report of the unit of 25.04.1942 (and later in the relevant period), where 7. and 8. Staffel report their personnel strength jointly, while the 9. Staffel is treated separately. Also - and this might even be more important: Due to the fact that they were transferred to a new area of operations, the unit report only 15 out of 29 pilots ready for action on this date! The remaining pilots probably still not finished their familiarization training in the north by this date.

3. The total number of pilots ready is getting higher when we approach the date of the loss of White 3 + , but the number of aircraft ready for action decrease. On 30.04.1942 the combined 7. and 8. Staffel only have 11 aircraft ready (pilots 18 + 11 so called 'bedingt', best translation here is 'conditionally ready for action'), on the day after this loss the number is 13 (pilots 22 + 3 conditionally ready). So there are a lot more pilots than aircraft.

How to conclude...?

Well, I believe that during the first part of their northern operations the 7. and 8. Staffel of JG 5 were operating as a single fighting unit, utilizing pilots and available aircraft to get the best fighting force in the air at any given time.

Regards,
Andreas Brekken

--------------------
Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube!

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Kari

Just as an aside, I believe you have looked at the wrong line in Valtonens book. I have his Luftwaffe pohjoinen sivusta and there it is clearly listed
9.5.1942 Bf 109E-7 WNr 5133 valkea 3, 8./JG 5 Lt. Hans Lechte, etc, etc.
Can't imagine he should have changed that in the book you have...

Andreas theory sounds very plausible to me

Cheers
Stig

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Kari

Bf109E 5975 was lost in the tundra and the 'remains' are now in the USA along with 10256 and 10144. I doubt it was recovered from an old airfield.

Also 2023 was Black 9 and was also recovered and is with Jerry Yagen in Virginia USA.

27.05.42 Bf 109E-7 WNr 2023 "Black 9" of 8./JG 5 flown by Ofw. Walter Sommer shot down in air battle at 13:14 CET (Central European Time) between oz. Njal-javr and r. Lebjashka (Kola municipality) by Soviet Hurricane of 2. gvSAP VVS SF (Lt. Kolomiets). Also claimed by AA of 1./426 OZAD, located NW Murmashi.

So white 3 but which unit and which aircraft I do not know.

regards

Mark

Fools Rush in............
 

I hesitate to enter this thread of Northern Air War Experten, but it strikes me that the KZ looks much darker than the white portion of the fuselage cross and it might be yellow. Could it be another machine other than we. 3, like ge. 3 or 9?

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi, John!

Please do not hesitate ;) !!

IF the aircraft has a yellow code, the only possible unit belonging in the north at this time would be 6. Staffel of II. Gruppe.

Looking at the scene in more detail, my opininon of this loss is that this is an aircraft that was belly landed with a stopped engine, judging by the position and damage of the propeller blades. Also, this would not have happened in rough terrain, as the damage to the fuselage and aircraft as a whole would have been much greater.

So - broadening the 'search' would indicate that we are looking for an aircraft belly landed on one of the airfields operated by the Luftwaffe spring/summer 1942... provided the aircraft wasn't belly-landed during the winter and what we see is an aircraft recovered from a landing on for example ice and brought to the airfield in the spring....

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Are we all comfortable with the given location? Titovka??

Regards,
Anderas B

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

What about this one?

27.05.42 III/JG5 Bf109E-7 4141 Titowka 40% Enemy Fire None personal injury.

(Did not know there was an 'emergency airfield' at Titowka. Thought this was the front line?)

Anyway, engine stopped, pilot survived. 40% damage seems about right. Believe engine has been removed not broken off. Belly landed but now up on jacks and being disassembled.

So possibly White 3, 8 or 9 of 7./JG5??
(9./JG5 - where located at Trondheim moving up in July 42?)

Any other listings for 4141 later in 42/43?

regards

Mark

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hello!

Thanks to Stig it is confirmed I indeed took wrong WNr initially (I've corrected it now). Had to work towards midnight yesterday and had no steam left to look Valtonen's book when finally at home.

Now. Is the topic photo of Bf 109 "white 3" in question correctly identified? Is it "3" or even white? Titovka AFAIK was never in German hands so the photo should be of Soviet origin. It does not really look like it. And is the subtype E-3, hood looks like early type? Is the year 1941 or 1942? I really cannot say, don't have any better info. My motivation for posting the photo was to invite discussion and it worked.


About the tactical numbers and Bf 109 transferring to North early 1942

Data from "Pori airfield logs" reveals following BF 109 flights April – early May 1942:

April 3rd, single Bf 109 coded "2" from Pori to North.

April 5th, ten Bf 109, codes 2,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 and 12 from Reval to Pori. All ten took off towards North the next day, but "3" and "7" returned. The two followed rest April 9th.

April 15th, solitary Bf 109 "1934" from Pori towards North.

April 29th, Bf 109 "gelbe 2" local flight at Pori.

April 30th, three Bf 109 "4", "6" and "9" from Helsinki to Pori. "4" and "9" continued North the same day. Also "gelbe 2" and "rote 19" from Pori to North.

May 1st "schwarze 2" from Helsinki to Pori. It continued to North with "schwartze 6" the same day.



Discussion and speculation

I think the ten Bf 109s early April was Staffel (7th?) worth of E models with white tactical numbers. This might or not be confirmed by checking other logs like Rovaniemi, Oulu etc.

Late April Bf 109s seem to have been with black codes. Another Staffel (8th?) towards North?

Before, between and after these Staffel transfers there were numerous Bf 109 recorded with Stammkennzeichnen and also with no recorded codes. The first Bf 109 F-4 models recorded as such arrived at Pori May 15th. You (Mark and Andreas) should have them already in the file I sent couple of years ago?

Anyone knows if it was common habit to mark converted Bf 109 E-7s with Werke Nummer? The Finnish air observation logs record codes given to them by Germans and/or those visible on plane surface. There has been several photos in E-bay auctions which do show four digit number painted on fuselage behind canopy hood. The Bf 109 "1934" might be one of those E-7s? Or was it Mtt Regensburg custom (compare Schmoll's book, photo on p. 45).


I will leave for holidays now and there will be no response by me for several days. Please continue the discussion as this might get the bigger picture of the JG 5 build up early 1942 a bit clearer.


All the best,
Kari

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hello,

According to GQM losses and Prien's JFV, the above mentioned Bf109E was already lost in 1940.
Bf 109E-4 WNr.4141 27.09.40 6./JG3 N.N., Luftkampf - Absturz, in die See (Kanal) - 100%

The correct JG5 loss on the 27.05.1942 should be the following
Bf 109E WNr.4111 27.05.42 8./JG5 N.N., Luftkampf mit Jäger - Notlandung, W Titowka - 40% sw.2+ (E-7)

best regards,
Tomi

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi, Tomislav

I believe you are wrong.

As far as I can see (will double check this evening) WNr 4141 must have been recovered after the incident in JG 3. I have this aircraft noted for a longer period of time as being refurbished to E-7 status at Erla.

It was damaged at Langeoog while with I./JG 54 in May 1941, was returned to be repaired again, and went to JG 5 where we have the loss listed of 27.05.1942.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=127126

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=122967

I would have been comfortable with the aircraft being lost and the WNr erronously recorded if it was only the loss in JG 5 we had, but in this case we not only have multiple GenQu 6 Abt references to this airframe after the alleged loss, but also other documentary sources from a repair facility which has recorded this WNr.

Will double check this evening.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi Andreas,

Yes, I think you are right. The WNr. for the loss on the 27.09.40 might be wrong.
Could you please also check what you have for WNr.4111?

I have ther following
Bf 109E WNr.4111 19.04.41 4./JG54 N.N., Überschlag bei Landung, Fl.Pl. Belgrad-Semlin - 50%
Bf 109E WNr.4111 10.08.41 5./JG77 N.N., Luftkampf mit Jäger, bei Zebrikowo - 35%
Bf 109E WNr.4111 14.07.42 Stab/SchG1 N.N., beim Start ausgebrochen, Fl.Pl. Kartayschewka - 35%

regards,
Tomi

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi, Tomislav

I have the following for these three losses:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112068

As you can see I have WNr 4114 for this one, and I have checked the GenQu records to be sure I haven't made an error, and it says 4114.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=135878

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=135879

The other two seem to be more or less similar to what you have

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Hi, guys.

Finally got time to access my archives.

Some facts:

The 7./JG 5 (ex 1.(Eins)/Erg. J.G.3) was in Banak on 21.4.1942 as reported in the KTB of Luftflotte 5 Gefechtsstab on this date. The order was for the unit on this date to stay ready for redeployment and immediate action at Banak. It is of interest to note that they state that 7./J.G.5 'mit Spitzenpersonal' is at Banak, which indicate that the units commanding officers and Gruppenstab is also located at Banak at this time.

The next day, 22.4., the order for the unit to continue their redeployment to the north is mentioned, really an annullment of the order of the previous date.

Late May 1942 the same war diary mentions 9./JG 5, which at the time is stationed in Bodø, they are to dispatch one Schwarm to Elvenes for protection of shipping in Narvik.

Have had a few minutes to think about this now, and as we all know, the II. Gruppe were dispatched to Pori in a Staffel by Staffel operation late April 1942, in order to re-equip with Bf 109F. So i believe what we see from the tower logs at pori at this time is the individual Staffeln of II. Gruppe transferring their new mounts to the frontline after a brief transition training at Pori.

So - I think my theory with regards to the combined operation of 7. and 8. Staffel still hold water.

The new assessment of the photograph in question more and more point towards the 6./JG 5. The style of the numeral '3' is typical of the numerals used by this unit, as seen on for example the aircraft of Rudolf Müller.

Is it possible to be certain about WHAT airfield we are dealing with here?? the barracks and their placement should be a rather distinctive feature. I have overviews over all airfields in Norway with drawings and aerial photographs, but not from the finnsih ones.

I guess the Soviets must have flown recon over these, any material available from that side??

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

Andreas

I also though the 3 was of the same style as Müllers Yellow 3.

Been having a look at Bf109 E's - summer 42 - E's handed over to another staffel/Gruppe. Nothing sticks out. Be interesting to know the location though.

regards

Mark

Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942
 

The owner of the photo is a Finnish soldier based on Petsamo area but I'm not certain if he also took the photograph.

Martti