Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Hello,
does anybody know more details of 2 Fw 189 losses 9.(H)/LG 2 on the 16.5.1940 in the Wavre area ? According to some books 3 were shot down at one time by 79 Sqd RAF Hurricanes. Can somebody confirm that?
What was the hour of the losses ?
Marius

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Marius: All is covered in Peter Cornwell's book. There were 2 lost and I have photos of Seehase's crashed ac. I wrote an article on this for Aero Editions some time ago and this has been used in the recent book on the FW 189

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Hello,

Very rare birds indeed! I went on the crashsite of Seehase's FW 189 which is situated near Ramillies (5 km north of Eghezée) and found little pieces of the smashed aircraft. By the way, thank you Chris for the article and the Uhu crash picture (published in Aérojournal) which has saved many hours of field detection ;-)

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Pleasure!

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Chris,
what was the hour of the losses for both Fw 189`s accodring to German documents ??
Marius
P.S.I have Peter`s book, but cannot read what is English & what is German info. Sorry.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

I have no German documents and the time is 0830 hrs

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

So the documented time is 8.30 p.m. according to English documents, right ?
I cannot believe the 79 Sqd spoted 3 Fw 189 and 1 Do 215 ? Maybe 1 Fw 189 and 3 Me 110 ?

Could it be that 79 Sqd shot down this 1 Fw 189 - Lt. Seehase`s aircraft. And the Staka`s aircraft was shot down earlier the day ?

I would like to know what German documents are telling us about these losses?

Marius

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Oops-being military, 8:30 should be 0830 but checking Peter's book it was 2030 hrs which matches with 79 Sqn's 3 claims by Parker, Clift & Cartwright as being 'PM'. I contacted Clift who remembers the combat clearly. Admitedly, 2 recce ac flying together is unusual so if anyone can disprove, so be it

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Indeed it is more complicated than I thought at the beginning. In this case any researching is not possible without knowing more German details. And you must add French fighters too, like the GC III/1 (Marche,Chciuk,Gnys). They shot down a "Do 17" in Gembloux area at 14.10 hours.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Marius,

You can make it complicated if that is your wish. For my part, I note claims for Fw189s filed by No.79 Squadron in the right area - these being, as far as I am aware, the only claims for such a type filed by any Allied pilot on the day in question but please correct me on this if I am wrong. As the Fw189 was an unusual type to meet on operations at the time, I see no reason to question the validity of these claims.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Peter,
I am sure the type could has been misifdentified by French pilots as a "Do 17".
Otherwise, the 79 Sqd achieved all 3 victories in the evening. The simplest way to compare and check both Fw 189 losses is to find out when exactly they flew their missions.
Any idea who could know these details ?

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Hi Marius,

German sources do not provide any detail.

I have an account by P/O TC Parker, and it’s clear that he shot down the Focke-Wulf Fw189A-0 of FF Uffz Heinz Schmitz: “ Led Green section with P/O Dorien-Smith and Sgt McQueen. Saw Focke Wolfe (sic) at 3000 ft so attacked with good lookout for Me’s, enemy/a dived down very low but closed up and fired until he hit the ground and exploded. We were then subjected to extremely heavy ground fire of all kinds which damaged all the a/c. …”

The second Focke-Wulf Fw189A-0 was claimed by P/O Clift, and Sgt Cartwright. Although I do not have a combat report, I see no reason to question the validity of these claims

Peter

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Considering that not a single FW 189A-1 series had left the production lines by 30 June 1940, one must anticipate that any aircraft must have been a V-muster or one of a few A-0 pre-production series. On 30.6.40 most of these were serving as test aircraft either at Focke-Wulf or at Rechlin.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Thanks Peter.
But what about the third shot down Fw 189 ???
And why don`t you think that all three pilots claimed the same aircraft (Seehase) ? Or maybe one of the British pilots shot at the Hs 126 of 4.(H)/13 ?

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Marius,

There were only two Fw189s lost that day. So why not accept the simple fact that No.79 Squadron shot them both down as claimed ?

Sealanes,

Yes, they were pre-production A-0s under operational evaluation with 9.(H)/LG2.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Peter, because there is a French fighter section which could have destroyed one. According to a personal account the "Do 17" forcelanded in the Gembloux area.
On the other hand it is difficult to believe 3 new recconaissance aircraft flew a mission in a Kette. But maybe this was a "bombing mission", but could the Fw 189 A-0 version carry bombs ?

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Marius,

I have nothing further to add. You must believe what you wish.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Peter, no problem. But I think the British records from that period (France 1940) are not very accurate and full of mistakes and overclaiming.

Nevertheless I hope somebody can provide us with the hours of action of the Fw 189 due to German records.

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Hello

If I remember the only witness of the FW 189 I met told me it occured in the morning and sure he remembered very well the allied fighters (2-3?) firing at the German aircraft. He was even injured at one finger by a bullet splinter (?) and 'nursed' on the crashsite by... Germans as he told me. I don't check the location of the second aircraft which was recorded between Orbais and Walhain (quite large area) if I remember.

May 40 will remain for ever 'une foire d'empoigne' ;-)

Best regards

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Hello,
what is your source please ?
One Fw 189 shot down in the morning ?

Re: Shot down Fw 189 on 16.5.1940
 

Hello,

Just many hours of researching crashes witnesses and they become so rare... It is just an exemple but I found only one witness (85 years old) of this particular crash and he gave me his testimony which is short and faint as it is usual; remember those events have occured 69 years ago and time flies like memory...

Best regards

ClinA-78