Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Somebody told me that Lt A. Schreiber of 1./Erprobungskommando Nowotny based at Achmer, flying Me 262A-1a WerkeNr. 110387 collided 29-10-1944 with a Spitfire of 411 Squadron. The collision should have been in the area of Tubbergen (Province Overijssel - Holland) and both the a/c crashing on German territory. Spitfire PV240 flown by F/O Thomas Kinsler - J/35977 - RCAF (from Thomaston/Georgia/USA) at the hamlet of Sieringhoek 2½ km SW of Bentheim and the Me 262 on the corner of a wood parcel N of Gildehaus. P/O Kinsler was killed, initially buried Neuen Friedhof Lingen/Ems, reinterred in the Reichswald Forest War Cem. near Kleve in 1946. Lt Schreiber baled and survived.
Is this story correct ?
Thanks for any reply, regards,
Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Henk, Stormbirds site says lost in possible collision with a Spitfire of 4 Sqd flown by FlLt Wikins. It also says the 262 was from 6/JG6 (???). Think there might be some typo errors.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Thanks Kutscha and Dan for your quick reply.
Regards from Holland,
Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Hello Kutscha and Dan,

Rcvd info that Leutnant Alfred Schreiber was slightly injured. His Me 262 came down twixt the farm of Mr Wesselink and the nowadays ring-road SW of Tubbergen, province Overijssel, Holland.
It's believed he collided with Spitfire PL953 of 4 Sqdn based at B.70 Deurne/Antwerp in the Nordhorn area (Germany).
Spitfire PL953 on a high level reconnaissance flight and flown by F/Lt D.C. Wilkins, RAF 101007 suffered an engine failure and was force landed north of Tilburg, province Noord-Brabant, Holland. Exact crash location still under investigation. F/Lt Wilkins became PoW (L3-8378).
Regards,
Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Typo...... PoW-number F/Lt Wilkins 8378 (Camp Stalag Luft III).

Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Henk,

indeed a Me 262 crashed near Tubbergen, pilot Ok. It is also known that Lt. Schreiber landed with his parachute near Gildehaus. However, there is no 100% proof that these two incidents belong together although this seems very likely. Why do you think the collision was not with F/O Kinsler of No. 411 Squadron? This was the outcome of investigations of Gerd Poelchau many many years ago...

cheers,

John.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Hello John,
Because Wilkins was flying a high level recce and Me262 always flew at high altitude. This is also the opinion of Horst Münter from Dortmund-Wambel, a passionate air war researcher. I've on file that Kinsler was attacking a train near Burgsteinfurt and was hit by AA fire in the Nienborg area, what's close to Burgsteinfurt. Will see what's in vol. 2 of "2nd TAF", already published and expected soon on my book shelve.
Prettig weekend,
Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

The data on Kinsler you use and what 2nd TAF of Shores/Thomas uses is the info in the ORB. Timing is the essence of the story. We know Kinsler crashed near Sieringhoek (SW Bentheim). Lt. Schreiber landed with his parachute Waldseite (N Gildehaus). Both sites are only a few miles from each other. The crash of the Me 262 at Tubbergen was "around 12.00 hrs" according local witnesses.

The loss of F/O Kinsler of No. 411 Sqn was at approx. 12.40 hrs. The bellylanding of F/Lt. Wilkings of No. 4 Sqn (after engine failure) was at approx. 17.00 hrs. I further can't imagine that after a collision which causes a Me 262 to crash a Spitfire could continue to fly to Tilburg, make a bellylanding and then report as cause of crash "engine failure".

Based on the assumption that the Me 262 of Tubbergen was indeed Lt. Schreiber's 262, than the Spitfire of Kinsler is the best candidate. The best way to further investigate this is to establish the correct time of the collision. I don't think the logbook of Lt. Schreiber survived, so this might proove to be difficult.

John

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

I looked into this further and I think indeed TIME is the most important factor. If we can establish the exact tme of the collision, than we can investigate the best candidate for the Spitifre.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

I have checked losses of the day with a friend. It seems the recce Spit is the most likely candidate, and according to some papers, the pilot baled out of the downed aircraft.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

At Tuesday June 14th, 2005 I will be able to check the original ORB of 411 Sqn and hopefully also the Wing ORB of that period. If it contains any information about this crash of F/O Kinsler I will report it here.
Checking the ORB of no.4 sqn. will be a little bit more difficult because no.4 Sqn. was at October 29th, 1944 stationed at B.70 Deurne in Belgium and went to Gilze-Rijen at November 23rd, 1944.
But we will see what we can do and whom we can contact in Belgium.

Jaap

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

As promised here the information from no.411 Sqn. ORB.

PRO Air 26/186 no.126 Wing. 29.10.44. Sheet 540.

F/L G.B.Mercer again took off a section dive-bombing a rail cutting three miles East of Burgsteinfurt. All the bombs were dropped on a train of ten cars just East od the target. The whole train and the railway went up with much debris about. The railway was well cut, and the train destroyed. Another train standing at Meteten was straffed of which a locomotive and two cars were damaged. F/O F.F.Kinsler (J.35977) di not return from this mission. He was last seen just after dropping his bombs dead on the target. He reported his aircraft on fire and was told to set course for base, it is thought possibly he baled out.



PRO Air 27/1804 no.411 R.C.A.F. sqn. 29-10-1944. Sheet 540.

Weather was suitable for flying and the Squadron did its first operational flying in nearly three weeks. This consisted of bombing trains and rail targets in Germany. Our first casualty A.383. in nearly three months was sustained when the engine of F/O T.F.Kinsler’s kite packed up (probably due to enemy flak). He was instructed tp bale out but confirmation of this being complied with is not available. He is reported as being “Missing-particulars unknown.”
Casualties for October, 1944: J.35977 F/O T/F.Kinsler, Missing on operations on 29.10.44



PRO Air 27/1804 no.411 R.C.A.F. sqn. 29-10-1944. Sheet 541.
PI498 F/O T.F.Kinsler Duty: Dive-Bombing Up: 1215 Down: Missing.
Three 500 and 6 250’s were dropped on a train of 10 cars just east of a rail cutting(original target) east of Burgsteinfurt. The whole train standing in Meteten was strafed. F/O Kinsler did not return from this mission. He was last seen just after dropping his bombs and reporting his a/c was on fire.


Remark from J.W.: In the report of an earlier mission at that day to a target in the same area, a fly-over 1 mile east of Burgsteinfurt, it was mentioned that a Jet Job was seen but was to far to identify. This mission took place between 1115 up and 1215 down.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Meteten is actually Metelen, it is just a few miles from where I live :)

Robert

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

When we compare the information of ORB 411 Sqn. with the claims of Lt.Schreiber of October 29th, 1944 we can come to the conclusion that it was not the Spitfire of F/O T.F.Kinsler which was rammed by the Me 262 of Lt.Schreiber. There is gap of 3 hours between the crash of Kinsler and the claim of Schreiber.

Claims of Lt.Schreiber mentioned in Tony Woods claimlist:
29. October 1944

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lw.Kdo. West:

29.10.44 Ltn. Alfred Schreiber 1./Kdo. Nowotny P-38 £ HS at 9.000 m. [Herford] 12.00 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

29.10.44 Ltn. Alfred Schreiber 1./Kdo. Nowotny Spitfire GO at 9.500 m. [Bramsche-Hopsten] time 15.25-40 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Hello Friends,
Thanks for all your info and suggestions. As Franek said the Spitfire pilot baled out; the exact crash location of Wilkins aircraft still has not been confirmed being N of Tilburg; Me262 most times flying at high altitude; Wilkins being on a high level reconnaissance; PR-Spits having large wing surface and could glide quite well - this all seems most likely that it was Wilkins who (accidentally ?) was strafed by Schreiber's Me262.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Dear Henk,

Ho. ho, don't panic. We are still working on it!
It seems very likeble that it was Wilkins but the time distance between a claim at 15.15-15.40 hrs and a crashlanding at 17.00 hrs is a little bit to much.
We now know from the ORB of no.4 Sqn. that after 14.10 hrs. no planes for high-alt. recces left B.70. The starting time of Wilkins is not known yet.
Several members of the Study Group Airwar 1939-1945 living in the area between Gorichem and Tilburg are now working on this case.
We will crack this nut!!!
I will let you know here at 12 O'Clock High or in our Bulletin in a story about all Me 262 crashes in the Netherlands mentioned in the literature or most probably in both places.

Jaap

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Dear Fellow Researchers,

Nice bit of investigation by all. Certainly one of the better threads of late.

Regards,
Richard

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Hello Jaap,
Could you give me the exact location of the Me262 SW of Tubbergen. Between Wesselink's farm and the nowadays ring road? Do you know the streetname where Wesselink's farm was located?
Regards,
Henk.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Dear friends,


In Henk’s question about the Me 262 at 29-10-1944 he also has mentioned that the Me 262 crashed at German territory. Yesterday I have received the proof that the Me 262 of Lt. Schreiber has crashed at the South-West edge of the village of Tubbergen in the Netherlands. The information was found in the diary of the Airraid Protection Service in the village of Tubbergen. Interesting is also that at the sheet is suggested that Schreiber has landed at Zollamt Mander. Mander is a village in the Netherlands 6 km North-East of Tubbergen.

At the sheet the Werkenummer of the plane is not mentioned, but we kow that Schreiber was on his second flight that day when he had to jump out of his aircraft.

Also is mentioned at the sheet, that the time of the report of the crash was 17.00 hrs. This does not mean that the crash has taken place at 17.00 hrs.

I hope that the above mentioned information can be used by Dan O’Connell in his work about the Me 262.

The tough nut has still to be cracked. We have almost found the evidence of the time and place of the crashlanding of F/l. D.C.Wilkins but it is still too early to publish it.



Jaap

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Putting all of this into the database, thanks guys.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

To late for book though, it's already at printers :-(

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Dear Franek,

We are still looking for information about F/L D.C.Wilkins crash at October 29th, 1944. F/L D.C. Wilkins was the pilot of the Spitfire PR IX PL853 of no. 4 Sqn RAF. Some time ago you have said:

Could you explain or show us the papers who are saying that F/L D.C.Wilkins has baled out of his plane?

Jaap Woortman

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

I am afraid I cannot as I have not seen them. ;)
I must ask my friend for the source but I suppose it could have been from aircraft card.

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Dear Franek,

If you could be so kind and ask your friend. It would help us a lot in cracking this tough nut. Specially when he could tell us where Wilkins bailed out of his Spitfire.

Jaap

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Hi Jaap
My friend checked for accident of F/L Derek Charles Wilkins and his databse based mostly on F.78 aircraft movement cards says that he force landed but 'also reported PBO (presumed baled out) North of Tilburg. If it was over the enemy territory, there should be his report at NA. Sorry, no more precise information is available at the moment.
Cheers

Re: Me 262 - 29-10-1944
 

Good work need some time.
Therefore it cost me some time to find the information were F/L Wilkins in his Spitfire PL953 has made his crashlanding.

From the NARA Record Group 92.
Missing Aircrew Reports.
Air crashes by date.
Date: 29-10-1944
Time: 15.59
A/c : Spitfire PL953
Place: 6 km south-west of Tiel in the Netherlands.

The information was supplied by mr. Jan Hey, Hengelo.
He has found this information between the USAAF a/c crashes.
So it was pure luck.

Jaap