Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Hello,

We've made very important progress within the EOE Working Group on completing a definitive Luftwaffe loss data base and matching a large number of crash and forced landing photos to these entries. Right now, we're stumped on the following three fairly intact KG54 He111s, for which numerous photos exist that were surely taken during May-June 1940 period in France, Belgium or Holland. These are B3+BK, B3+EM and B3+GS. We're also seeing ID of a published photo of B3+KS which looks like it force-landed near an airfield. I'm also seeking additional photos of B3+HK. We have only a medium quality image of this aircraft obtained from eBay. This plane came down near Onnaing, France, on May 17th, with the center of the plane burned out. The former three all came down intact and show major damage from fighter attacks and/or flak damage. B3+GS had the tail either blown off to destroyed it on the ground, or torn off when it attempted a wheels down landing and one side of the gear collapsed. Please do not send in B3+EM as the a/c of Uffz Moors. This has been mis-identified by many sources as his aircraft down at Oudenaarde, Belgium, on May 21, which is incorrect information. B3+EM came down in France on an unknown date. Uffz Moors was piloting B3+GM, which was completely destroyed when it came down near Lochristi, Belgium, on May 21st. We have many photos of the wreckage of that aircraft.

Any assistance with these crashes, or with any other KG54 losses during the WC would be much appreciated. We now have confirmed photos of losses of three He111s from the disastrous 8./KG54 raid on May 10th, that resulted in the loss of six planes. We have identified with photos the wreckage of B3+AS, B3+BS and B3+DS; the B3+GS mentioned above could be one of the three remaining, one of which came down across the border from Belgium in Holland.

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Hi Larry, marvellous to see your making such good progress with the EOE Working Group, and in particular the identification of KG54's aircraft.
To further help correlate 8/KG54's Heinkel losses for 10.5.40 is it possible to confirm the location of B3+DS or give any crew details?

Assuming that B3+GS is the a/c that forced landed and burned out at Waterhoek Polder, across the Belgian / Dutch border, and flown by Uffz Alfred Vogel this leaves only the a/c Von Riedesel, Lt Jansen, and Uffz Zenner to find.

Any further details particularly welcome.

Best regards,
Steve.

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Steve,

B3+DS is Zenner's down at Hulste, Belgium. FL and center burned out, but codes still visible.

No photos known of Vogel's crash, nor are codes known, but it apparently is not B3+GS, according to a local contact.

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Hi Larry, many thanks for the clarification on Zenner and B3+DS,
also that of Vogel.
Im sure with the aid of your team and the great number of original photographs being unhearthed on E-bay, that all will be revealed one day!
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Larry,

Concerning the events on May 10, your additional data leads to the following conclusions:
B3+AS (St.Kap Stadelmayer) Adegem-Maldegem
B3+BS (Reinhardt) Merendree
B3+DS (Zenner) Hulste

Then, because you state the B3+KS came down close to an airfield
B3+KS (Riedesel) Ruiselede-Wevelgem
As you know Wevelgem was a large airfield, mainly used for training. Other sources also state this a/c came down close to Wevelgem.

Since you state that the aircraft of vogel was not the +GS, then by elimination:
B3+GS (Jansen) Morkhoven

Which then leaves us with the only one we don't know yet:
B3+?S (Vogel) Sluis (NL)

Does this make sense?

Regards, Pieter

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Pieter,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, the locations for B3+AS, BS and DS are confirmed by photos as stated, although all three aircraft were pretty well destroyed and burned out. A member of our WG (working group) has contacted the historical society near the 8./KG54 crash location at Sluis (NL), and they state that the background for the B3+GS photo isn't around there. Peter Taghon has interviewed people near the Ruiseledge-Wevelgem crash site, and they told him that the aircraft was set afire (by the crew?) after it landed and was pretty much burned out. That is not the condition indicated by the photos of B3+GS. Morkhoven, Belgium, however, has not been eliminated. Again, according to Peter Taghon, the plane and crew at Morkhoven fell into the hands of the Belgian Army, which was ordered to blow up the plane before they retreated from the area. He does not know if they did this or not. The tail of B3+GS, which was hit from behind by a fighter attack before it came down, was ripped from the fuselage and points in the opposite direction to the rest of the plane, which was intact, after a possible attempt to land wheels down. This could have happened during a hard landing or been done with explosives by Belgian troops before they retreated, making it impossible to confirm or eliminate B3+GS as the Mordhoven incident for now. I'm hoping that someone else will have information on this incident, or additional photos of the crash at Morkhoven (or B3+GS) that would help us research it.
Peter Taghon has commented that he thinks that the photo of B3+KS may have been taken earlier (or later) as the folliage on the bushes indicates winter or late spring. He thinks this might be from the Scandinavian Campaign
There is one other problem here. The only other loss to 8./KG54 during the Western Campaign took place on May 19th, and the location according to the NVM was Mons, Belgium, which is a change from what is in Peter Cornwell's book on the WC. We have no photos of that incident, so we don't know what the crash site looked like or the codes of the plane that crashed there. That could also have been B3+GS. So we seem to be left with either Morkhoven or Mons for the crash location for that aircraft. I'd really like to eliminate one or the other if any reader of this board can help with that.
I'd also like to turn up a photo of the apparently intact 8 Staffel crash at Sluis in the NL on May 10th, or photos of the burned out 8 Staffel He111 at Ruiseledge-Wevelgem. Slowly and patiently we're working our way through all of the WC Luftwaffe crashes.
We've recently confirmed that we now have photos of all five fighter crashes on land during the first day (10.5.40) of the campaign in the NL: 4 Bf109s and 1 Bf110. We've also, as a result of some brilliant sleuthing by a member of the EOE WG, confirmed that a plane claimed lost by 2.(J)/LG2 in Belgium on May 12th actually FL in Holland. He's located the exact spot with 100% certainty.
I now have only one series of u/i photos of a Bf109 FL in the NL during the WC for which the identity is not confirmed, and I've got a strong suspicion on that one. Another recent success was the correct ID of the He111 fuselage abandoned along a road in a suburb of Ham, France, which was much photographed by passing German soldiers. We now have the W.Nr. and full a/c code of that one, as well as a photo of it at the original crash site.
We're getting there!

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Just a note: The use of the name Holland is incorrect, it does not exist as a country. The Netherlands is the correct name to use in English

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Hello,

I live in America, and Holland is a commonly used term here for the country of the Netherlands. They are used by many people interchangeably. Maybe in Britain it isn't; I don't live there. I know which country it is, and so do the readers of the board.

Do you have any helpful info to contribute to this discussion of He111 losses from 8./KG54?

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Hi,

I have to say that I agree with Larry, and I'm from the UK. In history or geography we always referred to France, Belgium, Holland although as a child stamp collector I knew that the latter was also referred to as the Netherlands. I'm 54 so it could be that younger members may have a different view!

Regards,

David

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Larry,

The Bf109 on May 12 of 2.(J)/LG2 you mention as having come down down in the Netherlands should then have been the one at Berkelaar in southern Limburg. Can you confirm?

Regards, Pieter

PS Re. the naming of The Netherlands vs. Holland you are fully right that for a non-dutchman they are considered the same. In fact we are often already quite happy if foreigners don't think Holland is the capital of Denmark or something similar. The sensitivities on these kind of naming topics are usually highest inside the country, and we shouldn't bother others with it. But just to summarise the sensitivities again: Holland is formally the western part of the country, what are now the provinces of Southern and Northern Holland. Dutchmen from the other peripheral provinces usually don't like to be seen as being from Holland. Has something to do with events from 400 years ago and carefully cultivated ever since. So very serious indeed ....

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Pieter,

Even though as a child in school we were always taught that the country was "Holland" rather than the Netherlands. I'll attempt to reform my verbiage, as I have many good friends in "the Netherlands" and don't want to offer offense. If you asked an American, probably most would name the country as Holland rather than the Netherlands, as that's the way it is taught in world geography classes here in primary school. And in school history classes, the Dutch who settled New York came from "Holland," where they grow lots of tulips. There is even a famous passenger ship line called "Holland-America Lines." Enough. I get the point, something about Dutch historical sensitivities. I guess as a Coloradoan, I wouldn't want to be referred to as a New Yorker (heaven forbid). They have big buildings but we have big, beautiful mountains. Let's move on.

Pieter, no the location is not Berkelaar in southern Limburg, but near Wons. I don't have a 109 listed as down on 12.5.40 near Berkelaar. I do have a 2./JG26 aircraft that came down on the 12th, but which has been variously reported as having set down at both Waalhaven and Dordrect. I'm trying to confirm that the photos that I have of an overturned Bf109E from that unit is that same incident, and determine precisely where it set down and flipped over. The photos should indicate a badly injured or killed pilot, but that isn't indicated in the 2./JG26 loss reported at Waalhaven, which I think is also the Dordrect incident. Tell me more.

Did you get my list of crashes in "the Netherlands" for 10.5.40 that I sent you today?

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Mr Hickey

I regret the sarcasm expressed here about my remark, I really do. But the fact remains: Holland is the wrong name to use for the 1939-1940 area, and I can't help it your teachers were wrong......

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Please direct your request to the The Agency for International Business and Cooperation (EVD) is a bureau of the Ministry of Economic Affairs, Juliana van Stolberglaan 148, 2595 CL Den Haag, P.O.Box 20105, 2500 EC Den Haag The Netherlands.

They release the "Made in Holland" Magazine worldwide which you may read online at: http://www.hollandtrade.com/vko/home.asp

I wish you a pleasant and successful discussion with them. Maybe your national Government is wrong, too and needs your advice.

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Maxxl2

You prove my point by writing down the adress of the agency is in The Netherlands, not in Holland.....

Holland is a good name for doing business, not the correct name to describe The Netherlands as nation in a history book covering a certain area (1939 - 1940). As a historian it's my opinion correct names should be used in history books.

Again no effort to offend anyone here, just some positive feedback which you cannot see, for I obviously have been standing on someone's big feeth here. I'm sorry for that.

Read this for more understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

Sorry, cannot help you with the 8./KG 54 questions you have

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Putkikker is right

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Putkikker,

I read the wikipedia article and must admit that I'm now more confused than ever about what the Netherlands is, politically. All very complicated. I also read the "Made in Holland" publication put out by your own government, which seems to me an acknowledgement by your own country that the familiar, internationally known (but not official) name for the country is Holland. Imported goods here in the US require a label of origin be attached, and I'm sure that I've seen such labels for goods imported into my country saying "Made in Holland," not "Made in the Netherlands." I'm sure that a large majority of the American population--alas, renowned for their ignorance of foreign geography and languages-- wouldn't know what or where "the Netherlands" was, hence the use of a name familiar to almost everyone and taught to us in our schools since childhood. So, no offense or sarcasm intended, but it seems to me that both usages on an international forum such as this are appropriate, and forcing one to disregard the commonly used name for your country in other countries seems a bit much, since I'm not trying to argue what to call your country, but to convey information about locations of WW II era crashes of Luftwaffe aircraft. At least I'm trying to learn the geography of your country in some considerable detail, and have visited there a number of times in recent years--always a pleasant experience. And yes, I have a university degree in History, and have considerable knowledge of world geography.
(And then there is Belgium, not what to call it but what it is, politically. I'm not even sure that Belgians know the answer to that question). The world seemed so much simpler in my grammar school geography classes.

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

No offence, but we talk about colloquial language:

saying England we mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,
saying America we mean the United States of America,
saying Holland we mean Kingdom of the Netherlands,

let us follow the KISS - rule: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

PS: I am born in Leeuwarden - I am not Dutch - I am Frisian ;-)

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

I don't think we, Belgians, even bother about this. Politically-wise, that is ;-)

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Man, you are kidding. Belgium is on the brink to break apart.

Are you "Flams" or from "la Wallonie"? ;-)

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

In unofficial language it's ok to use Holland (like on this forum), in a history book, or government report (where official language is required) The Netherlands is the only correct word. I actually prefer the KIA(A) rule: Keep It Accurate (up to you to make the last word starting with an A) :).

Let's drop this subject, and let's find that one 8./KG 54 aircraft that is still missing


Do you want to talk about that? :)

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Putkikker, et al.,

I'll make sure that when the EOE airwar histories come out I don't use the term "Holland" in them, and use "the Netherlands," to refer to anything regarding that country (which will be very extensive). I take your point about it being the "official" name, and for "official" purposes I'll not use the term Holland. In the meantime, if I slip in my haste to post something on this website, don't take offense if I mention the term Holland. Absolutely no offense is intended. I had no idea that the terms weren't effectively interchangeable. Having been to the Netherlands 4 times in the last three years doing research, I'm sure that I've used the term Holland in front of my Dutch friends, colleagues and hosts many times, and not once did any of them ever indicate I was doing anything politically incorrect.

Regards

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Larry,

Trying to get the discussion back from the non-value added Holland vs. the Netherlands discussion (I don't understand all the excitement and apologize for the confusion it causes you) and back to the loss list:

If the 2.(J)/LG2 loss on May 12 is supposed to be in Wons I have a serious problem with that, because reports are confliciting. See also earlier discussions on this board.

So one story (a.o by Jochem Prien and Peter Cornwell) says that 16 Bf109's of I.(J)/LG2 were active over Tongeren in northern Belgium around 09.00, where they were intercepted by A-flight of No 615 Sqn. One was supposed to have landed in the Liege area.

The other story is the crash landing at Wons, or more specifically Pingjum which is close by, both of them at the Wonsstelling that protected the head of the Afsluitdijk. But this crash is consistently attributed to 6.(J)/186.

Now I.(J)/LG2 was stationed on May 10 at Wyk auf Föhr in the north. but apparently moved more south to Nordholz on the 11th (?). But this is above Bremerhafen, still in the north, and (if correct) I still doubt this unit would be active over Tongeren from there.

At the same time an emergency landing at Pingjum on its way back home was only logical if the unit was still stationed at Wyk or Nordholz, but then clearly the unit active over Tongeren must have been another one. In other words the two events are mutually exclusive, and the story is very dependent on what the actual basis was of I.(J)/LG2 on May 12.

So what are the proofs to claim the Pungjum a/c not being from 6.(J)/186 but from 2.(J)/LG2?

Regards, Pieter

PS Yes have received your mail.
Will be travelling coming two weeks, so will do my best to answer as soon as possible.

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Larry,
can you post a copy of the SLUIS picture? I am in that region and I can try to find
out if anything else about this crash is available.
regards
sealander

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Sealander,

Contact me on the personal message board, so that we can exchange email addresses for further correspondence on this issue.

Regards,

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Larry,
did you get my P.M?
Sealander

Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54
 

Sealander,

Yes, I got the post. I'm just behind the curve on working through my email. Will be back to you soon--maybe yet today.

Regards