Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Hi
Yellow noses on Me 109 (who and why exactly yellow?)
Probably by the end of BoB (IX-XI 1940?) was introduced the yellow color on Me 109 (yellow cowlings and rudder).
I am wonder, who had invented this and spreaded this idea among LW units?
Why it was exacly yellow and not any kind of red? As you know red is more visible from the long distance then any others colors?

Thanks for any comments to this, I think, simple questions (not yet clear for me). :-(

Later also the yellow was used on Balkans war (April 1941 and on the beginning of Barbarossa).

PS
Reason of intriducing the yelllow is obvious - fast and better recognitions (own or enemy) for own crews (bombers, own fighters ect.).

Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Hello Mirek,


See info on thread starting 30 March 2005:

Hello,

There have been some postings regarding yellow markings on Me 109's. See an interesting note below - from KTB Befehlshaber der Sicherung der Nordsee.

7.4.41

1922 Jafü Deutsche Bucht teilt BSN, F.d.M. und F.d.V. Nord durch FS mit:”Sämtliche Jagdflugzeuge BF 109 sind mit einem gelben Erkennungsanstrich ringsherum bis an die Flügelwurzeln versehen. Tragfläche und Leitwerk sind nicht mehr besonders gekennzeichnet. Es wird gleichzeitig darauf aufmerksam gemacht, daß auch BF 109 ohne diese Anstrich z.B. als Überführungsflugzeug das Luftgaugebiet berühren können. Das Fehlen des Anstrichs darf daher nicht dazu führen, daß diese Flugzeuge als feindlich angesprochen werden.”

13.8.41 Erkennungsanstrich eigener Jagdflugzeuge:

0800 FT 0740/58 KlN von Gruppe Nord geht ein: “Kr.Kr. Alle. Ab sofort Erkennungsanstrich eigener Jagdflugzeuge 1) Unterseite Motorhaube gelb 2) ganz Propellernabe schwarz.”



This might explain some mysterious markings.

Best wishes,
Rob

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Mike: I am not knowledgable of light wave physics, but here in the US, several studies were done regarding the use of red and yellow for emergency vehicles, especially fire engines, and how to make them more visable to other drivers (we Americans have a bad habit of having collisions with them when they are on emergency runs). The studies clearly showed that yellow was more visible from short to longer distances. So, during the 1970/80s, many fire engines were ordered in yellow. However, both firemen and the public wanted them red, so the newer ones are reverting to red. However, ambulances are still yellow.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Not very scientific but from experiences with R/C models a clean white is also highly visible as it reflects a lot of light, at least on sunny and clear days, this may be different on hazy days with less direct light. There were white markings also on BoB Emils but the majority were yellow. Probably this is because yellow was the better all weather marking?!

Just a thought.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Red stays visible longer in fading light; however, as a comparatively dark colour, the yellow would provide more contrast with the camouflage.

In the UK some fire services changed to yellow from red, but because red appeared black in the sodium lights then common. Yellow was a much more obvious colour in the evening.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Just for color information I remember years ago Mercedes-Benz or BMW, not sure now, did some testing on colors for safety. Better vision from long distance. They found a kind of fluorescent(?) orange was the most visible but doubt who would acquire a car in this color - but some interesting shades of green, yellow or orange were the must on BMW cars in 70´s...

Can someone confirm or correct "my memory"?

Re: The Red Baron not any Yellow/Orange Baron, :-)
 

Hi 2 all
thanks for some remarks concerning this isses, I would like to underline that we have in air warfare "Red Baron - von Rihtchofen", not any "Yellow Baron", :-)

It means that one guy in LW had made such conclusion, which was agains "holy aviation tradition" - let's pain our planes on yellow colors, which is better color then red one.
Why not red, some of them could say, we had in our army "Red Baron" and it was good and should be good in WW II. We did not want any yellow we only want red could say/add others. Strong supporters of "holy traditions".

Some of you have made quite interesting comments about 70-ties and paining on fire, testing cars. But we have the isses from about 30 years earlier (IX-XI 1940), where the first yellow/oragnes noses of Me 109 are seen flying hight over Britain, and later ect.

So, the painting by Germans the Me 109 in late 1940 was against "holy traditions" - remeber about "Red Baron"
They had to had some strong proofs that yellow is much more better then red one to broken "holy traditions".

PS
I can agree taht some resarch could proof in 70/80s that yellow is better one that red one but: How German did it make/proof it in 1940?
Nice question, :-)


Reagrds
Mirek W

Re: The Red Baron not any Yellow/Orange Baron, :-)
 

The Germans certainly did not prove that in 1940. It was already known, long before that date, that yellow is more visible than red under most conditions. Notice that the life jackets and rubber rafts used by US Navy pilots were usually yellow, not red.

When I drive my car at night or in bad weather, I can see a yellow painted automobile long before I can identify a red one.

The answer:
 

The answer is quite simple:

The eye is most senitive for yellow colorwaves

Best
Olve Dybvig
Ophtometrist Msc

www.luftwaffe.no

Re: The first question is who, why in 1940?
 

"The eye is most senitive for yellow colorwaves"

Best
Olve Dybvig
Ophtometrist Msc

Hi
OK we know it now but how did they know it in 1940? You probably have not read whole post. The simple answer about colorwaves is now (2005) simple but who did prove/explain it in 1940?
Second what about holy tradition (Great Red Baron). Army is one of the conservative society.
BTW Do you suggest that this knowladge was well know in German medicine since 1940 or earlier?
But what about if the resaches where done by Jews in 20/30-ites in Germany, not done by pure Germans?

And second. How did the results of "medicine knowledge" where transfered to "military knowledge" breaking the usual traditional knowledge +habits - all in the past had used the red one, which is the best one" ect.

This is the point?

Regards
Mirek W

PS
In the 80-ties we had also in Warsaw, for several years, the taxies painted on Bahama-Yellow - between yellow and orange - specialy produced for city taxi, but again it was about 40 years after WW II nad some resarches done in 70/80-ties about eyes sensitives for color.

Re: The first question is who, why in 1940?
 

In this case it is mixing apples and oranges.

Yes, red is a traditional color for the Richthofen Geschwader, which can be seen with the reintroduction of JG 2 and its red color code, however the tactical identification markings of 1940 are of a different nature and yellow seems to be the choice (compare with yellow on other types operating above water in pre-war times).

So we have tradition of one unit versus tactical standardization of the whole Jagdwaffe. (Actually in this sense the color red would demand exclusivity).

OTOH, it might have to do with the fact that the color red was associated with the enemy markings.

Poles, French, Brits and later Soviets.

These are thoughts, nothing based on hard fact or documentation.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Nifty, to add to your post.

Trainer a/c were painted yellow to make them more visible. Now why was that done if yellow was not known to be more visible Mirek?

So Mirek, even in the 1930s-1940s yellow was known to be the more visible color. For further proof Mirek, answer me why the British used a yellow stripe on the leading edge of the wing instead of another color?

Now as to the 'Red Baron'. He did not use red to make his a/c more visible but to make it more recognizable. Even the other a/c in his unit used red on their a/c. Great pychological move by him and his Jasta.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

I was told that trainer aircraft were yellow because the yellow flag was flown above infected tents when fever hit the Army. The message was the same - keep away!

Yellow is often used as a warning in nature, Bees and wasps being examples.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Even before WWII I can remember other uses of yellow for better vision. Just remember the Dornier and Blohm und Voss planes in the Trans Oceanic Flights of Lufthansa from Africa to Brasil. Upperwing surfaces (From photos it looks horizontal stabilizers uppersurfaces also) were in bright yellow for safety. Easy to spot on water surface from above. Clear colors were of use years before on sailplanes. They use to land in any place when winds stops! Even the record-breaker He-115 had large areas in yellow.

Didn´t Italians have an "Africa" scheme, ivory with red strips on their planes and some sailplanes too? Surely for better identification in an emergency landing on sea or sand.

I also think several planes on 20´s and 30´s doing long distance flights over water or forests also have light colors on uppersurfaces but have nothing with me, just a guess.

So we can verify that years before WW II some colors were recognized as being easily seen from distance, like the yellow.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

In the case of the Red Baron, do not confuse personal affectations with the use of a color as a "technical warning device'. IIRC, I believe VonR was pleased when his Albatros aircraft was referred to as " Le Petit Rouge".

BTW, yellow leading edges were used by both the RAF and the Imperial Japanese Navy/Army for head on identification.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Hello

The German scientist Hermann von Helmholtz (1821 - 1894) knew this long time before ww2. If he was jew or not has little relevance
Most people belive that the eye is most sensetive to red, but as we now know, it is yellow.


Best
Olve Dybvig

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutscha Nifty, to add to your post.

I agree, and it is important to make that distinction. In wartime, the air forces normally want camouflage to take precedence over obtrusive personalized markings. Brightly colored paint is usually applied to speed identification, but not always for safety.

In 1940, the Luftwaffe Bf 109s were given yellow noses because German flyers frequently opened fire on their own planes by mistake, and several were shot down. It was felt that something had to be done, and yellow spot color seemed like a quick fix. But German pilots were not told the real reason for the yellow paint and some speculated it was "special invasion markings" for Operation Sea Lion. Some RAF pilots assumed that a yellow-nosed German fighter was an advertisement of elite status, and that myth was passed on to the USAAF.

Of course there are other reasons for using bright colors on combat aircraft. A Mustang pilot from the 4th FG had a red and white checkerboard painted on his engine cowl to help his wingman find him in the prevailing fog over England. Both JG 1 and the 78th FG used a wrap-around checkerboard pattern on the noses of their aircraft (presumably to distinguish themselves from other units, but I am not certain). During the Cold War, the US Navy splashed a variety of bright colors on their carrier aircraft, but that was done mainly to encourage espirit de corps and recruitment.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

and then there were those with white cowls.

and white was used in North Africa, not yellow, which probably blended in with the landscape.

Re: Yellow "noses" of Me 109? Who and Why?
 

The Italians were already using white.