FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Gentlemen,
See my post on the army air forces site: http://forum.armyairforces.com/509th...o-m169765.aspx.

Basically,I have a photo from my grandfather's collection that features several FW-190's at an airfield with P-47's on the ground also. I've identified one of the P-47's as a 509th Fighter Squadron, 405th Fighter Group aircraft. I was wondering if anyone can tell me anything about the German aircraft in the photo or the identity of the field at which it was taken.

Thanks.

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Hi Zack,

I think the 190 on the left is Fw 190 D-9 W.Nr. 600651 "White 15" of 1./JG2. The photo was probably taken at Straubing airfield.

Regards
Roger

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Thanks for the info Roger.

Is anyone aware of any sources of period photos or other historical information of the airfied at Straubing?

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Hello,

If you are too lazy to print the photo from the ArmyAirForce page yourself, it is now now available as copy via ebay for "just" $5 .... :-O Or you may go the easy way and download it yourself from the ArmyAirForce page, that costs you $0 ;-) [note: I have no connection to the seller whatsoever]

I'm wondering if the owner is aware of this? Probably yes, I doubt that it would be offered otherwise.

Regards
Roger

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Speaking of "great" ebay offers: have you seen this one yet?? First one is served first so be better fast :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Roger

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

The seller is barely literate - and rather greedy!

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

[quote=lingodog;84476]The seller is barely literate - and rather greedy!

But he is entertaining. Mapping plane was thousands of miles above the action indeed!

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

All,
The eBay seller does not have my permission to sell the photo. The original is in the possession of my grandmother. I scanned it myself. I have notified eBay of this fact. The seller fraudulently states that the original photo is in his collection and then has the nerve to talk about copyrights in his listing.

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Hi, Zack...

I am the seller of the Fw190 photo, and I bought a copy of it off eBay around 2 weeks ago.

Though I understand your frustration, there is most likely no legal copyright on this photo, and I copied it off the original I had given to me. When I say "original", I mean the post-war paper one that was sent to me. I looked at your link above, and the quality of the one I received is slightly different than the link you you have posted, so it is possible the original seller enhanced it (?).

Almost all photos of German aircraft lost all copyright due to the War Properties Act, which is why you constantly see the same photos being published on the internet over and over again, and in the same magazines and books.

If there is a legal copyright on this photo, it would lie ONLY in the hands of the ORIGINAL PHOTOGRAPHER (the person who took the photo). So if let's say, your grandafther is the one in the photo...if he hands his camera to a friend and says, "take a photo of me on this Fw190"...his friend who pressed the shutter button is the legal copyrioght owner. Copyright does not lie in the hands of who is in the photo, or who currently has possession of the original. And even then, what sucks is that if someone is trying to prove copyright ownership, one then has to prove "who" the original photographer is...how it was passed down, etc. with documentation. eBay will not remove anything in regards to copyright on photos as they do not have jurisdiction, nor know copyright law. They will ask you to fill out a form...fax it to them...then they contact the seller. Seller replies with a form...then they ask you to provide a Court Order and proof of a lawsuit filed, otherwise they keep the auction listed.

I can remove it as a courtesy if you wish, but no laws are being broken. Copyright Law is VERY in depth, so I will not reply again to this thread as I do not want to it to get into copyright discussion, but you are welcome to contact me off board if you wish.

Mike

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Let me be clear. It is my wish that you end the eBay auctions of my family's photo and that you never again offer it or any of the rest for sale in any form.

I wish to communicate the same to the person from whom you say you purchased the photo. Please send me their eBay username offline so that I may inform them of my wishes as well.

I ask this of you not as a courtesy, but out of respect for the man in the photograph, my late grandfather, Ronald E. "Hick" Miller. Imagine for a moment how it feels to see a personal photograph, cherished since childhood, offered for sale by a stranger, with a company logo stamped across it as if it is corporate property.

After the first sentence of your message, you expended the entire balance of text telling me why this image is not covered by copyright law. Then, at the bottom of your eBay listing is the following statement: "All pictures and descriptions used in my auctions under COPYRIGHT and I forbid the use of these photos and information in any manner such as paper or electronic (internet) publications or otherwise. Use is solely based on my authorization only." .....................What?

In your eBay listing, you stated the following: "This item is a new print from the original." Say what you will, but it is clear from the quantity and scope of items you've sold and offer for sale on eBay that you know what "original" means to collectors. Or do you?

I posted this image on the web because I want to learn as much about my grandfather's military service as I can. He's not around anymore for me to ask, so I'm piecing together the puzzle from every clue I can gather. Thanks to others on this site, I believe I finally know where and when this photograph was taken. And now, the knowledge base is greater. Please do not take advantage of me and all the other folks that make up this online community.

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Hi Zack,

Yes, all descriptions and photos ON eBay are covered by copyright. I am the author of the work (descriptions), and the author of the image ON eBay.

I am NOT claiming copyright of the original image itself, nor do I claim copyright on ANY of the photos I sell, as ALL are public domain.

That statement in the auction is ONLY pertaining to the listing itself, and it does state that.

It is the same as if I were to publish a Public Domain image (no copyright)into a book. The photo would still be in public domain, however the BOOK and ALL CONTENTS in the book are under copyright as the entire work is owned by the author or publisher.

That is why you see all sorts of manuals and handbooks on the Me109 and Fw190 scanned onto CD and sold by various individuals. Udo Hafner has a copyright on ALL of his CD's, however the copyright is on the CD in it's entirety, NOT the individual pages (meaning he does not own the contents on the CD). That is the same the other 5 + sellers of manuals and handbooks on eBay, and the 20+ worldwide.

Roger was taking numerous images off eBay and other websites and was using them on his personal website on a weekly basis...which was a major copyright violation. He has now stopped doing that, and has re-worked his website...

I own an original copy of that photo, which I bought off eBay. Regardless if an image is printed wartime...or printed 60 years after the original print date, I was selling a PRINT off an ORIGINAL photo I bought off eBay, which was on older (not modern photo paper).

I have already told you I would remove it as a professional courtesy (though not required to)...please stop taking your frustrations out on me...take them out on the original seller. I have done everything legally, and already have gone beyond what was required of me.

Sincerely,

Mike

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

OK, so are you going to end the auctions as you stated you would?

Let me know the original seller's identity and I'll be glad to take out my frustrations on him as well.




"original copy"......................

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Are you saying it is a copy of an original copy?

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Hmmm, the first listing at ebay was stopped (see here)....

....but now it get's even better. Instead of $5 it was listed again by the same seller for $6.99..... (see here) At the time I am writing this this auction is still online...

I checked other photos and there are several photos that appeared in "Luftwaffe in Focus" and "Götterdämmerung". I doubt that the seller has the "originals" as he states in his auctions (but I don't claim the opposite to be true since I don't know it. I am just expressing my opinion):

"This was reproduced from an original in my collection."

And to say that he meant "original copies" with "original" is in my opinion a bad excuse and a deception of potential buyers. Or has anyone of you ever seen a "fake copy"? What is the difference between an "original copy" and a "fake copy"??

To show photos for historical purposes is something completely different than selling copies for profit. While I admit that the LWCollectibles website showed scans taken from ebay auctions two years ago the purpose was to share historical knowledge and not to sell these photos or to make profit from it. LWCollectibles also never published photos coming directly from families without asking for permission.

The rightful owner of the Fw 190 photo (Zack) does not have anything against sharing the photos with historians who can help to find out more about its history therefore he shared the photos online. But he has something against other people trying to make profit with his own photos which I can perfectly understand. No matter what is legal according to the copyright law and what is not, I find this a sad and regretable thing to take other people's family photos and offer them for profit.

Regards
Roger

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Thank you all for your support.

eBay was notified of the situation regarding both eBay listings yesterday as soon as I became aware of it.

Mike,
I'm still waiting on the identity of the person from whom you purchased the photo so that I may dispense to him his share of my frustrations.

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Good point Roger. Your LW website was made for good just like Ed West's posts here and I highly respect your efforts.

The thing happening here now is what I am always scared at. Since 2003, I have been doing personal research on the Korean War actions of 452nd BW (USAF). During my research, hundreds of original negatives and color slides were given to me by the veterans. Some of those photos were extremely unique (such as a color slide of Kum Sok No's Mig-15 taken a few minutes after its landing). I always wanted to show and share them with interested people but unfotunately I never did it, just because I did not want this famous "third person" to make profit from those photos.

On the below given quote, Mike states that he bought the photo 2 weeks ago from eBay. Than there should be no problem, because eBay auction pages are stored for 2 months in memory. Mike can give the item number of the auction he bought the photo and the identity of the third person would be clear.


Regards,

Batur

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Hi Zack,

Auction was removed as I said I would. I have not been at my CPU for the past day, and the "second" photo was a store listeing which was posted at the SAME TIME as the other one...I simply have not had time to remove it.

No one has broken any laws, and I am not going to go on and on in this argument over who got what photo from who, and who owns what and what eBay member I bought it from.

I understood your concern, and have no beef with you, which is why the photo was removed without question.

The matter is closed, and if you want to contact me off board, then by all means. I will not reply anymore to this thread, as you are taking your frustrations (which have nothing to do with me) out on me publicly when I asked you quite professionally to contact me off board to resolve. I had no idea who you were, whose photo this was, or who was even in the photo.

The whole thread has become a childish drama, due to the postings of Roger Gaemperle. Roger has a beef with me because I got my attorney after him for the money and items he owes me. He and I have a long history, and this is his way of creating a ridiculous issue out of something that never needed to be.

Roger knows FULL WELL I have a HUGE amount of contacts worldwide. The other photos he is referring to, are either OWNED BY ME (current or previously), or were LOANED TO ME from various contacts over the world as post-war slides, post war negatives, original negatives, original photos, or war-time copies.

I do not have to tell to anyone who my sources are, who the photos came from, if I have them (or own them) now, or anything else...nor is it anyone business.

Everything I sell is Public Domain, and obtained from NUMEROUS sources and no laws are being broken.

I come to this board as I like the Luftwaffe aircraft and am restoring an Me109...I do not come here to get involved with childish drama created by someone who has nothing better to do (I am not referring to you Zack)...

Mike

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Mike,

You are mixing two things that don't have anything to do with each other. I pointed out just to the 1 auction because I was surprised to find the photo at ebay just after a relative published the photos at a forum in order to get help, nothing more. I would have done it even if the seller would not have called Michael Fuller, that's not the issue.

And I would not have posted a second message. However, I was surprised to find a second offering of the same photo in your shop that was still online even after you read the posts at TOCH. Furthermore, I wanted to set things right regarding LWCollectibles. I never claimed anything about your actions but always said it is my opinion (go back and read my posts).

If you closed the auctions that's nothing more than fair.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Roger...

The auctions were listed legally. No laws were broken, and Zack has no claims on the photo, regardless if he owns it.

Zack asked me to remove it, as it bothered him seeing it up. I would feel EXACTLY the same way...so I did...no questions asked.

I do not have to justify anything, Roger...but...as you seem to want answers...I only had time to end the auction yesterday before I headed out. I did not even THINK about the store listing (which you so "NICELY" reminded me of in your reply above).

If you have a beef with me or something you want to talk about, then talk to me directly, instead of taking your personal issues with me in a public rant. I would never do that to you...no matter how angry I was at you from our "previous" issues.

Zack...i am now getting emails from people I do not know, telling me they are hearing on the G503 that I am a LIAR and a CHEAT...and asking me what the deal is.

How do you want me to respond?

Please let me know, as this is getting WAY overboard, dude...and you are accusing me of something I am not...

This matter is closed.

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Mike,

Please calm down. As I said in my earlier post: even if the copyright laws would allow you to take a personal photo from someone and sell it on ebay I still think it is a regrettable thing to do. That's my opinion.

Again, this is nothing personal, I read Zack's request some weeks ago, replied to it as I recognized a D-9 on it and with the help of Japo's excellent book about the Doras could find some more information about where it was taken. Then I saw it on ebay and posted a short message (which I would have done independent from the ebay seller's name).

Thank you for your understanding and for removing the offerings at ebay.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Mike,
Thank you for closing your auctions. I ask that you not offer the image or any of the others I posted on armyairforces.com for sale again in the future.

I was very angry when I realized my Grandfather's photo was for sale on eBay. I did call eBay seller messerschmitt*109 a liar and a cheat on a G503 post when I discovered the auctions. I called him a liar because he stated that the original photo was in his collection, which it is not. I called him a cheat because he took a photograph I posted to be shared with everyone who wanted to see it (free of charge) and attempted to profit from it. I consider that to be cheating.

I have toned down my posts and removed this wording from them.

This matter is closed.

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Okay, so let´s this small but important sidetrack matter be closed. Important because it reminds us it´s not only pictures of planes but mostly personal memories we´re looking at...

So let´s get back to this interesting photograph:
http://forum.armyairforces.com/upfil...0607F08789.jpg

The high resolution makes three Fw 190As (orFs) discernible:
7 + I (yellow?)
5 + I (red?)
11 + I (red?)

Can something be said about this planes?

Regards

RolandF

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Thanks for your interest in the photo Roland. I am ignorant regarding the meaning of the numbers and colors. Can you (or someone else) explain to me what they mean?

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

With all three wearing Luftflotte 4 tactical markings (yellow cowl bands and rudders), the aircraft must be 190Fs of III./SG10.

They would be black 11+| and 5+|, as SG10 didn't use red numbers for their 8. Staffel, and yellow 7+| (9. Staffel).

On 3 May 1945, III./SG10 were recorded as operating from Přerov, under Luftwaffenkommando 8's, 3. Flieger Division, but the photo could have been taken anywhere as all 3 Gruppen fled to various airfields in preference to surrendering to the Soviets.

I tend to agree with Roger's earlier suggestion of Straubing, as the D-9 does appear to be White 15, WNr 600651, this is further supported by other III./SG10 aircraft visible in the background of other photos of this D-9 - which I must confess I hadn't noticed before!

Cheers,
Chris

Re: FW-190's at US captured airfield (photo)
 

Here´s an actual photograph of Straubing-Mitterharthausen (not Straubing-Atting!). The hangars to the right don´t look much different in size and position compared to the WW2 photo:

http://home.arcor-online.de/alois.la...e/mitterhs.htm

Maybe different photos of "White 15" may help to identify the airfield...

Regards

Roland