![]() |
Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Hello,
The insignias of 2 and 3 Staffel on Ju87Bs of I./StG77 have been published in the literature since the 1960s. However, finding confirming evidence in photos from the spring of 1940, when aircraft were clearly using Staffel insignias on their aircraft, has been difficult. For 1 Staffel, there is no problem, as the "lucky pig" design is well established in photos. However, 2 Staffel aircraft are supposed to carry a rearing elephant, but a/c apparently with that unit do not clearly show a design that shows the reported design. Shapes are just not right, although there is no question that the elephant design was used sometime in the unit's history. A similar problem exists with 3 Staffel aircraft. Does anyone have any certain photo images from the May-June, 1940 period, or earlier, that clearly show the reported images of the elephant and the bird on 2 and 3 Staffel aircraft? Thanx, |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
The only 2./StG. 77 elephant photo of is in the Airdoc book, sadly no codes but the emblem is undoubtably StG. 77:
|
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
This particular photo (or a copy) was sold on eBay yesterday.
|
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Larry,
Check the Stuka photos you have from my collection. Nearly all of them are from Aretz and Elfner, who were with 3./St.G. 77 before 2./210. You may strike lucky there. |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
John,
Thanks! I'll do that. Chris S. and Denes, thanks for your comments as well. We'll get this resolved. I've another photo showing the elephant, but the problem is that I have several of what I think are 2 Staffel Ju87Bs with rather indistinct squadron insignias that don't appear to have the correct shape for the elephant. Regards, Larry |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Hi Larry
This is a bit off your topic but still within the St.G 77 remit I have, firstly this image with what must be a St.G 77 emblem but do you know which Staffel or Gruppe it belongs? Second image looks like 8./St.G 77 (bomb in a loop caped with a crown)but the 'loop' seems to have 'arms'. Lastly third image doesn't resemble any St.G 77 emblem I am familiar with! AFAIK and looking at camouflage all images taken pre-1940. I hope you or others can help. Cheers Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Hi,
first - 4./StG77 third - 1./StG77 Robert |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Thank you very much Robert I can see now that both emblems are reversed on the port side so that the head points forward! Simple when you think of it.
Now we need to solve the second! Here is a blow up of the emblem, it does look like 8./St.G 77 but for the 'arms'. Sorry Larry in hijacking your thread. Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Thanks for posting the StG77 emblem picts Chris. Haven't seen some of those before.
|
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
The arm on the right side of the figure eight is there, but the crown-like shape above is different from the crown depicted in Ketley & Rolfe. I cannot imagine what the slight mass going along the bottom of the 8 might be. This may be an "early" variant of the emblem.
Ed |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Hi ed
My guess is that this is the 8./St.G 77 emblem but is probably scratched or mutilated in some way. Thanks for your thoughts! Hi Paul thanks for your comments check your PMs. Cheers Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
2 Attachment(s)
Ed
please find attached photo of the complete range of emblems for StG 77 , photo taken from "Dora-Kurfurst und rote 13" by Karl Ries.also included is a picture of the badge for 8./StG77 ? which appeared on Ebay some time ago,unfortunately which badge for which staffel is not clear. Trevor. |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Thank you Trevor for posting those images. May I ask, is the first image a wartime original?
Thanks Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Chris, as all of the images appearing in the "Dora-Kurfurst" series of books were taken before or during the war period I can only assume this one to be the same.
Trevor. |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Hello,
All of the St.G. 77 emblems were first published in Karl Ries, Jr's pathfinding book from 1963, "Markings and Camouflage Systems of Luftwaffe Aircraft in World War II, Vol. I, now long out of print. These show the various unit level emblems pretty much as shown in the Black and White Photo posted above, which is also from one of Ries' books from the period and shows a wartime image. These original Karl Ries-illustrated emblems are identical to what was published by Ketley and Rolfe in their "Luftwaffe Emblems, 1939-1945," which is the reference book most people use today. This post kind of wandered away from my original question about whether there are good, close-up photos showing some alternative early versions for the emblems of 2. and 3. Staffel, St.G.77, that were possibly used during the Western Campaign of 1940. The standard versions of these emblems don't appear to fit some of the fuzzy photos out there for insignia for these two units. I don't even recall ever seeing a good, close-up photo for the strange bird-head cartoon character indicated for 3 Staffel, on a Ju87B from the mid-1940 period. That's what I'm trying to determine, and is necessary to resolve before we can plan accurate color profiles for those two Staffeln. Regards, |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Hi Larry
Sorry again for the 'wandering'. I have about 20 Ju-87D's with the 3 Staffel cartoon bird emblem but no pictures of earlier marques with the emblem. That said I have this photo of what must be a St.G 77 machine, with an unknown emblem but what staffel does it represent?? Could this be an early 3 Staffel emblem, it's a Ju-87B? Cheers Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Chris,
I'm familiar with the photo you posted. I suspect that this is a variant of the 9./StG77 emblem, a diving eagle clutching a bomb (or in this case a torpedo?). I don't think that this is a 1940-period emblem. Also note the mountains in the background. This could be the Balkans early 1941, but I'm just speculating here. Thanks for checking your photo data base for me. Regards, |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Quote:
The Balkans would be my guess too, certainly pre-1942 as indicated by the uniforms and equipment of the soldiers. I agree the emblem is similar to 9./St.G 77 but is sufficiently deviant to make speculate on another unit within St.G 77. I can find no reference to St.G 77 being involved in torpedo trials or torpedo dropping so I'm going to to have rule that possible option out. Meanwhile I have two other unexplained emblems that are similar to emblems carried by St.G 77 i.e. dog-toothed crenellated shields, but I guess I ought to start another thread! Cheers Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Chris,
Go ahead and post your unknown StG77 emblems to this thread. They may well be related to the same ones about which I have questions. Regards |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Here is the first which I have blown up, does have similarities to the insignia of 7./St.G 77 (second photo for comparison) but is in fact quite different in a number of details that are evident such as a body with a curvy long neck. It could, of course, be an early 7./St.G 77 emblem. The original photo shows a Ju 87B, early war, with a white F on the front of the spats.
I have to get permision to post the second picture. Any ideas chaps, Larry? Cheers Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Chris,
Your insignia question is an easy one: this is a starboard-side view of the 4./StG. 77 "rooster" insignia. This plane would be coded: S2+?M. The top design is in red. Regards, |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Dash it Larry, I thought I'd found an unknown new St.G 77 staffel insignia! Larry Hickey the 'Hercule Poirot' of unknown insignias.
Seriously, thanks very much, mate I owe you one I had been scratching my head over that one for ages, and yes you are correct now I see it, it is easy. Chris |
Re: Problems with established 2. and 3./StG77 insignia supposedly used during the WC of 1940?
Chris S.,
I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the plane photo to which that is attached. If you are willing, and this is likely in the 1939-40 time frame, please contact me through the Personal Message Board. Regards, |
All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:16. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net