Junker 188 crash
 

Hello, i'm Claudio from Italy, i'm an historical researcher about my little region.
One yaer ago, i have found an old witness who told me about an unknow german plane crashed near Frabosa Soprana (South of Cuneo) in 12 - 13 September 1944.
I have found the crash site and a little bit of small scrap iron.
On one of these i have found a code and I have found that the airplane would have to be a Junker 188 D2 with this code F6+LP. It belonged Aufklarungsgruppe 6/(F) 122 with base to Bergamo.
I know the name of the captain who would have to be Lt. Gottfried Heenes (or Heene).
Unfortunately I have not found trace of nothing in the communal archives.
From local reports partisan goes the zone under control and the Germans doesn't go on the crash site.
The corpses were repatriated after 1945.
I don't know the name of the other air ones and where they are buried.
I have found these information from http://luftwaffedata.co.uk/html/losses_-_1944.html but now it is extinguished.
The data on this Internet page were:

12 Sep 1944
6(F)./122
Ju 188D-2
F6+LP
150235
Crashed no details available, all of Ltn. Gottfried Heene’s crew were killed.

This is an italian forum's page about this crash:
http://freeforumzone.leonardo.it/discus ... 3955937500

Someone helps me?

many thanks in advance
Claudio

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

no idea???

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Hi Claudio,

Are you meaning you need more details? Fate was unknown, so how can you be shure this is your aircraft as no indentifiable number or other detail is shown on the website (pictures). According to Andy Mitchells website the crew was Lt. Gottfried Heene, with Obgefr Helmut Scheingraber, Uffz. Walter Jesko and Uffz. Ernst Wehmeier (all killed).

However there are two numbers stated: Ju 188 150236 F6+IP in Barry Ketley ´KG 200´ book; but as D-2 150235 F6+LP on Andy Mitchell homepage on FAGr 122.

Best regards
ed

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Be a little more patient!

Ltn. Gottfried Heene, Obgefr. Helmut Scheingraber, Uffz. Walter Jesko, Uffz. Franz Wehmeier.

According to my information, all four were injured. I don't know if any of them died later.

Fore more about 6.(F)/122 in Italy see:

Nick Beale, Ferdinando D’Amico and Gabriele Valentini, Air War Italy 1944–45, the Axis Air Forces from the Liberation of Rome to the Surrender (Airlife Publishing Ltd., Shrewsbury, May 1996) ISBN 1 85310 252 0

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Many thanks to all, I'm sorry for my english but I'm self-taught.
I'm very happy to know the others 3 names of the crew.
I believe that is this airplane because all the eyewitnesses are sure about the date the night between 12 and 13 september 1944.
Moreover the scrap iron and the ammunitions, that we have found, are compatible with the JUNKER 188.
The local population that I have interviewed said me that there were 4 died.
All the corpses were recovered from the local population and they were buried in Seccata a fraction of Frabosa Soprana.
From local reports partisan goes the zone under control and the Germans doesn't go on the crash site.
The corpses were repatriated after 1945.
This is another page about this crash:

http://metaldetector.forumfree.net/?t=28767861&st=15

Username: aereofontane
Password: fontaneaereo

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

So, in your opinion is it possible to find the flight plans in order to understand what it was making this airplane.
An other question is it possible to find others information about the crew?

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

I have spoken now with the responsible of Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge e. V. Deutscher Soldatenfriedhof/Cimitero Militare Germanico.
In this location there aren't died German with these names and not even in the list of the died German in Europe.

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

If members of the crew were killed or injured, the only possibility would be the Personalverlustmeldung (personnel loss report) held by the Deutsche Dienststelle in Berlin but German privacy laws may make it difficult or impossible to obtain this unless you are a family member.

These reports do usually include a brief description of the purpose of the flight but nothing that you could call a "flight plan."

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

I understand...
So, the only possibility is some local newspaper or german association of veterans...do you know someone?

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Thanks Nick (for corrcetion, must look for/get your book).

Hello Claudio. Seems if your statement of your witness is correct (re all killed) then possibly either date can be wrong or number not correct (or even code in Nick & co. book be incorrect / or another plane where all were killed). From what we all know on this forum the Unit codes (here F6+LP) were (often) carried by more than one plane but at different dates (yet I have one recorded instance of two aircraft flying with same code, same day - but yet again can be typing error). Seems to me you must also try find also the W.Nr. to be certain of date and crew. These were usually stamped on small plates in several places on fuselage and painted on the tail (and often on parts that were detachiable, for handy referance when putting them back on the plane.) My point here is that real proof of this as the same plane is yet unconfirmed.

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Claudio: it is very unlikely now that veterans of 6.(F)/122 are still alive: it was a very small unit and 65 years have passed.

Regarding Ed North's point "However there are two numbers stated: Ju 188 150236 F6+IP in Barry Ketley's ´KG 200´ book ..."

1. It was mostly Geoff Thomas's book which Barry completed after Geoff's early death.

2. There is a second loss report for the same crew, filed on the same sheet as one for a KG 200 aircraft (Geoff Thomas sent me a copy). This plainly gives the WNr. as 150235 but the aircraft's code is not clearly typed. Even so, I still read it as F6+LP because the typewriter's upper case "I" has a serif at top and bottom whereas the letter in the code has no top serif, so I make it an "L."

The aircraft's mission is listed as "Feindflug" (operational flight) and place of loss unknown. The crew are all missing but there is a hand written addition dated 29.11.44 (I think) which notes that all four are dead. No place of burial is stated.

The loss information we used in "Air War Italy" was from a list compiled by a Berlin researcher, Arno Abendroth, and sent to Ferdinando D'Amico about 20 years ago. Looking at it now, I obviously misread the abbreviation "v" as "verwundet" (wounded) when it should have been "vermisst" (missing). A little late to discover that mistake ...

P.S. The existence of two loss reports is not unique. A KG 200 detachment was based at Bergamo with 4. & 6.(F)/122 and sometimes both units filed a report of the same loss. Years ago (before German laws changed) Geoff and I found we had been sent different reports on the same KG 200 aircraft by the Deutsche Dienststelle, giving slightly different information.

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Newly thanks to all, you are many kind to help me. When the snow is melted I will return on the crash site and I will hope to find others small scrap with some code.

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

I found some parts with a code FI..... if you want I could send some photos...

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

This is an image of the impact zone:

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

others

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

....

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

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Re: Junker 188 crash
 

.....

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

mmmmm

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3264/1214461626.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9440/1214461649.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8876/1214462295v.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5383/1214462442u.jpg

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6796/dscn2761gj4.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7251/dscn2765ad4.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8924/dscn2768to5.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5188/dscn2770zl0.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/769/dscn2771kt6.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2685/dscn2775oq6.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8276/dscn2776mm4.jpg

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4527/dscn2810ji7q.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4546/dscn2814fu1.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8697/dscn2818ii1.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2808/dscn2817mp3g.jpg

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

New mail from VDK

Sehr geehrter Herr Claudio,

für Ihren Hinweis über die in der Nacht vom 12. zum 13. September 1944 abgestürzten Ju 188 mit 4 Besatzungsmitgliedern, die auf dem Friedhof von Seccata/Frabosa Soprana/Cuneo bestattet wurden, danke ich Ihnen sehr herzlich.

Die 4 Soldaten wurden auf dem Fraktionsfriedhof Seccata im Juli 1957 ausgebettet und zum deutschen Soldatenfriedhof COSTERMANO am Gardasee überführt. Von den Gefallenen konnte damals keiner Identifiziert werden; für einen Lt. Gottfried Heenes/Heene liegt uns leider keine Meldung vor.

Mit gleicher Post habe ich nun eine Anfrage an die Deutsche Dienststelle (ehemalige Wehrmachtauskunftstelle - WASt) in Berlin gerichtet, mit der der Volksbund auf dem Gebiet der Erfassung deutscher Kriegstoter eng zusammenarbeitet. Nach Abschluss der dort zu führenden Ermittlungen erhalten Sie Nachricht. In Anbetracht des seit längerer Zeit fortdauernd sehr hohen Posteingangs und damit verbundenen Arbeitsaufwandes auch bei dieser Dienststelle muss ich jedoch vorsorglich um Geduld bitten.

Freundliche Grüße
Beate Kalbhenn

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

In the last days, I found some new information.
I found parts of machine-gun MG151.
From one of these pieces I read the serial code.
In your opinion It is possible recovery where this machine-gun was installed?
To clear for everyone which aerial it was.
Thank's to all.

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

no idea?

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Hello,


You must find a plate with JUNKERS on it. Do you have a metal detector?




Ed

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Yes, we have some metal detector.
The original post is this, but it is in italian and it is necessary log-in.

http://metaldetector.forumfree.net/?t=28767861

Sorry, what is a plate with JUNKERS on it?

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Like this one:


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ighlight=plate



See post 4 on the left.



Regards,
Ed

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Ok, thanks.
No, fatedly, we we did not find any plate with serial number.
We found a part of machine-gun, on the barelled there is a serial number and the letters FWH
What's means FWH?

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

I have created a temporary log-in for the original post

http://metaldetector.forumfree.net/?t=28767861

User name: aereofontane
PAssword: fontaneaereo

It is in italian but you can see others photo

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

So
The MG code is A3575. This code there is on the back block and on the barelled.
Moreover there are a number on the barelled:1596
and the letter FWH.

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

Hello claudio82clod,

If the letters "FWH" are a maker's Hersteller code, then they define:

Norddeutsche Maschinenfabrik G.m.b.H., Hauptverwaltung, Berlin NW 7, Dorotheenstr. 36.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

thanks

Re: Junker 188 crash
 

new mail from VDK

Sehr geehrter Herr xxxxx,
inzwischen liegt mir das Ermittlungsergebnis der Deutschen Dienststelle
(WASt) in Berlin vor. Dank Ihren Hinweisen konnte die in der Nacht vom 12.
auf den 13.09.1944 (der 13.09.1944 ist beurkundet) abgestürzte Flugzeugcrew identifiziert werden. Es handelt sich um:
Lt. Gottfried HEENE * 24.05.1920 Schatzlar/Trautenau Uffz. Walter JESKO * 19.10.1922 Cramonshagen/Schwerin Ogefr. Helmut SCHEINGRABER * 02.07.1923 Frankfurt/Main Uffz. Ernst WEHMEIER * 08.01.1924 Nieder-Jöllenbeck/Bielefeld
Die Besatzung wurde am 30.07.1957 auf dem Franktionsfriedhof "Seccata" in Frabosa Soprana/Cuneo exhumiert und zum deutschen Soldatenfriedhof COSTERMANO/Verona in den Block 13 - Gruppengrab 488/489 überführt.
Ich danke Ihnen nochmals sehr herzlich für Ihr Engagement, wodurch das Schicksal dieser Soldaten geklärt werden konnte. Wir werden uns bemühen, Angehörige zu ermitteln und diese dann von der Grablage informieren.
Ihnen persönlich wünsche ich alles erdenklich Gute und verbleibe mit einem
freundlichen Gruß
Beate Kalbhenn
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