Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

On 18 August 1940 Plt Off Gruszka of 65 Squadron was apparently shot down at around 14.50hrs near Canterbury, Kent, in his Spitfire.

I am trying to establish with a relative degree of certainty (if that is possible!) who his victor might have been. If anyone can provide anything tangible, or any hard and fast likely contender, I'd be pleased to know!

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Andy, was not there a case of a Me 109 crashing at the same time and place and believed to be the last victim of Gruszka?

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Hi Andy,

8./JG26 Olt. Gustav Sprick 13.50 Canterbury?
No Bf109 loss connected with combat with 65 Sqn.

Regards

Robert

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Robert

Gruszka was last seen at 14.50 British time.

Presumably the Sprick claim time is Central European Time, which would be 12.50 British time? Am I correct in believing this?

I am trying to get timings clear in my head over this!

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

I see that you have realised your mistake. Anyway, as far as I know, since 10 August British used BST = GMT + 1 hour while Germans - GST = GMT + 2 hours. This will give Sprick's claim at 11.50 GMT and Gruszka's loss at 13.50 GMT. Add to this one hour for British time and two for German one. Apart of that, I have Sprick claiming Hurricane, and it seems Don Caldwell is correct, attributing it to 17 Sqn losses. Robert is again making fuss, in a typical manner.

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Hi Andy,

and at which time 65 Sqn was airborne? At 14.50 British time no German fighters were in this area.

Regards

Robert

P.S. Mr. Grabowski please stop your stupid tricks and comments. Almost 90% of this forum is already ignoring you so this is useless :-)))

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

I have not got the time up-time down for 65 Squadron, but he was lost near Canterbury at 14.50 "whilst pursuing enemy aircraft between Canterbury and Manston". At least, that is according to the Casualty File held by the MOD.

I suppose the possibility of friendly fire exists here?

Something for Brian Cull to comment on, perhaps?

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Thank you Franek and Robert for your helpful input.

I am just a bit puzzled though, Franek, what it is that Robert is supposed to be making a fuss about?? Sorry. That is totally lost on me. I just asked a question here and didn't intend to start a war!

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Hi,

I remember seeing a post of German and British time. During some short periods both times were equal. Unfortunately I didn`t save this valuable information`s :-((

Regards

Robert

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Andy, certain person is regularly providing partial, untrue or not verified data as confirmed information, it seems to portray himself as a great researcher. Nevermind.
In regard of Gruszka, I recall the story that a wreck of Messerschmitt was found nearby, and that it was linked to accounts of lone Spitfire dog-fighting against Messerschmitts. I am not sure of the time though, as the wreck was not found, so how would they know so precisely? Good old bible mentions 13.30, and this is possibly time up.
If you look for an excuse for the Bader stir you caused, then I believe this is a wrong case, and there are more better ones.

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Franek

Thank you for your input but I have no desire to enter into any confrontation between you and Robert. You have both been equally helpful.

As for your comment:

"If you look for an excuse for the Bader stir you caused, then I believe this is a wrong case, and there are more better ones."

My interest in Gruszka is not in the remotest way connected to Bader. I am not sure how you think it might be? My suggestion that friendly fire might have been involved in the Gruszka case was merely a suggestion that perhaps this was an angle worth examining and in that context I thought that Brian Cull might have some comment to make. In view of his interest in friendly fire I merely wonder if Brian has ever picked up anything, however tenuous, related to this case. However, to the best of my knowledge there is not a shred of evidence to link this to friendly fire although I am aware that local witnesses to the crash have suggested this. The fact that another Spitfire is said to have circled the crash site probably gave rise to this local rumour but, of itself, this reported observation does not prove or indicate anything.

You have jumped to a wholly incorrect conclusion relative to my interest in this incident and your supposition that it is, somehow, linked to my earlier interest in the Bader case.

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Gentlemen,

Please correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that British Summer Time (Greenwich Mean Time + 1 hour) took effect on February 25 1940 and as such became the same as Central European Time until German Summer Time (GMT + 2 hours) was introduced on April 1 1940 thereby re-establishing the one hour difference. So, Robert, both British & German times were the same during March 1940.

According to the No.65 Squadron ORB, GRUSZKA went missing from a flight of six aircraft from Rochford (12.50 – 14.00) and therefore would have crashed at Westbere sometime around 13.30 hours. This is at odds with what Andy has got from the MoD but if the time given in the ORB is correct then there are numerous German claims that could relate to his loss. However, if the time given by Casualty Branch is correct then there would seem to be few likely German claims in the right area.

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Andy, where is your sense of humour?
Peter, yes, exactly, I mistook the entry for 1941, but this did not affect the conclusion. Very intrigued by discrepancies concerning the loss!

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Hi Peter,

thanks for this information.

Regards

Robert

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Peter

Thank you for the clarification relative to the ORB for 65 Squadron on 18 August 1940. The ORB was on my list to check at Kew this Thursday since I rather sensed something might be adrift here.

However, in two seperate letters to different individuals the AHB in 1975 and 1979 (Alan Brown and the writer, respectively) have quoted the 14.50 time. I have also checked back to reports on the inquest on Gruszka at Canterbury in May 1975 and find that a Mr Kenneth Wall of the MOD gave sworn evidence to Dr Wilfred Mowll, HM Coroner that:

"(Gruszka)..was last seen chasing enemy aircraft between Canterbury and Manston on 18 August 1940 at 14.50hrs"

I must say that I am inclined to the view that the ORB times are most probably correct, but the difference in timings seems to be consistent from the MOD/AHB. I rather suspect, however, that there is perhaps a single incorrect timing entered somewhere on Gruszka's Casualty File and the MOD have simply gone with that time consistently. After all, I suppose that the accurate time of his loss is/was hardly important to the MOD in the bigger picture of the case - although it causes a bit of head-scratching to those of us now trying to assemble an accurate picture of the event.

As you say Peter, if the ORB times are taken as correct then there are certainly possible contenders for his "claim". I have not (yet) looked at anything that might exist in local Kent archives at Maidstone to give a ground report of the aircraft down at Westbere and that might help to give some timing confirmation.

As a matter of interest, Peter, do you have the other five pilots who took part in this particular flight? It will save me some time rummaging in the microfilm drawers at Kew and will earn you another pint, of course!

Re: Claim for Spitfire near Canterbury 18 August 1940
 

Andy,

I suspect that you are right in that the MoD have simply repeated the time as originally documented for the loss of GRUSZKA. But the extra detail as to his last sighting is something I did not pick up during my own scan of the ORB so it's well worth taking another look at and particularly as I have no note of the other five pilots involved on his last sortie. Glaser, Quill, Keymer, & Orchard were all up at the time but I believe they were in a separate flight that took off ten minutes later.

As far as I am aware, though it is literally decades since I last inspected them, the Kent County Archives throw no further light on the subject. August 18, 1940, being particularly badly documented apart from the map detailing crash locations that shows one RAF crash at Wickhambreux which I take to be that of GRUSZKA. This map shows dozens of crashes that, apparently, are now unsupported by any documentary reports which suggests to me that the transcripts of the original ARP reports (on which the map was presumably based) have been lost.