Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Can anyone point me to a source that describes Luftwaffe flights over England just prior to D-Day?



Thanks in advance,
Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

There are sporadic reports in the ULTRA traffic from the spring of 1944, from NAG 13's Bf 109s, usually referring to cover of the Devon and Cornwall coasts.

In a PW interrogation, I've read that 1.(F)/121's Me 410s were over at night doing recon or damage assessment for the later Steinbock raids on the south coast ports.

IIRC JG 26 sent the odd pair of aircraft to check out the Straits of Dover as well.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Accounts of the Ar 240/440 describe flights by Oberst(?) Goertz in March 1940, from Paris Orly. Photos of the aircraft are available in the Flugzeug profile on the type, and elsewhere.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Thank you both. I'm wondering if the Germans had some idea of the troop buildup going on.




Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hi Ed,

The late Erich Sommer (Ar 234 pilot, VersVerb dLw) always claimed that it was not possible to fly over that zone and returen safely with photos with the Luftwaffe reccon a/c available (Ju 88 D/T, Ju 188F/D, Me 410 A/B) prior to the approach of the German reccon jet planes.
I wonder If that can be proved by evidence ...

Martin from Vienna
www.oefh.at

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hi Martin,


Thank you for that information. I am wondering if the Germans were aware of American troop ships coming in.



Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Just a quick footnote, as it were Ed, to your inquiry. Once the Invasion got under way efforts were made to photograph UK harbours and the kentish port of Ramsgate was covered by 5/123 (7th June 1944 Sortie F29/44, pilot Uffz Kallenberger, Height 750m; photos 753 and 754 used in report on the shipping there. Int Report Nr 3474 from from Stabia Luft 3). Copy in IWM.

There was another off Shoreham, same day, but I dont have the details in front of me now.....

Best.....

ChrisG

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Notes from a PRO file made some years ago on Enemy Air Avitivity Over the UK show 5th April Luftwaffe recon over the N.Sea and S/W Approaches, 6-4 evening recon over the English Channel , 19-4 single aircraft over IOW, 21-4 afternoon recon to Poole area. The E-Boot attack off Slapton Sands on 28th April has been reported as being the result of a Luftwaffe recon.
Between 3-9th May daily recon activity was reported and on May 20th there was recon to the Swanage and Dover areas.
Additionally on 7th march a Fw190 of Stab/NAG13 crashed in Guernsey following a recon to the S/W coast and on 28th. March a Bf109G of 5(F)/123 was shot down over France returning from a mission to London and the Thames Estuary.
No details of how well these missions went, there were also missions to Scotland.
Roman Gastager in the book Easter Bunnies refers to a couple of missions to Ireland and Southern England in a Ju88H1 in mid May.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hello.
Just to add something to Brian's post. On March 7th, 1944 two pilots of 610 Sqn. engaged three Fw190s approx 35 miles SE of Start Point at about 17.45hrs. Enemy aircraft broke and one was seen to be hit around the wing root area, panels flew off port mainplane. Enemy took little evasive action and aircraft was not seen to strike the ground/sea.
This puts the engagement very near to NW part of Guernsey. I believe 190 crashed at La Ponchez area of island.
RAF pilots were:P/O Hussey & F/Sgt Harding flying Spitfire Mk XIVs. Gun camera was used and e/a was dark grey/light in colour.
Hope this helps, Steve.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Steve,

According to an enquiry to the Dienstelle the German pilot was Oblt. Gottfried Bitterlich b. 27-12-1915, they gave ths crash site as north of Flugplatzes Guernsey. I take it you have a copy of the 610 Sqd. combat report,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hello Brian.
Yes I do have a copy of the report but I didn't have the Luftwaffe pilots details so thanks for that! North of Guernsey aerodrome sounds about right.
Thanks, Steve.

Edit:Just looked up Bitterlich on the Volksbund graves site and an Oberleutnant Heinrich Bitterlich (b:27/12/1915) is noted for the date 7/3/44! He is the only Bitterlich which corresponds for that date.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Thank you all for the additional information. I have read two accounts from the German side regarding delays after the invasion had begun. Apparently, some German ground units did not receive orders for days after it all started. I recall at least one other account from the German side complaining that "traitors" were not allowing some aircraft to fly.

I find it hard it hard to believe that the Germans were unaware that so many Yanks were now on shore in England.



Regards,
Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Ed,
Have you seen 'Hitler’s Spies' by David Kahn? There is a very useful section on Luftwaffe recce groups history/structure. Nothing specific about individual flights, but the message is clear that the high-level operations were nearly impossible by that time. Then in other sections of the book, concerning the intelligence reaching Germany from her agents in the UK (all turned and controlled by the British), he make sit plain that the agents were the only method remaining for the Germans to know what was going on in the UK: this reinforces the viewpoint that the Luftwaffe was not supplying any information. The book is impeccably researched, with many interviews from participating German intelligence personnel, and I haven’t found a slip-up yet.

The files I have seen at The National Archives and those quoted in ‘British Intelligence in the Second World War vol3 pt1 & 2’ show that the Allies knew of many overflights which were potentially PRU (mainly Fw190), but the distracting possibility also existed that there were high-altitude flights of which they were unaware. Prof. RV Jones said some years after the war that he almost laughed when he found out that the elaborate deception operations carried out in the south of England were wasted because there was so little German PRU in 1944: he said there was 'effectively none' carried out, so he stops short of saying 'totally none'. (He was not prone to overstating his case, and he met many of his German counterparts after the war to tidy up loose ends, so I believe he was quoting 'direct from the horse’s mouth).

Still nothing specific I am afraid, but a body of evidence that there was little or no German recce over England that threatened to expose the true disposition of troops and armour.

Bruce

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

It is worth pointing out that the elaborate deceptions (Patton's ghost army) were not only visual but electronic and propaganda based. Their overall success can be seen in the delay before repositioning the German divisions in the north east.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

According to Feindnachrichtensblatt 5/44 AOK Norwegen following are known to the germans

The movement of troops has more or less stopped, since they probably are in their positions before an attack (over the channel)
They are concentrated in south england and middle england.
Several messages are given to prepare for attack
Several messages (orders) of big exercises
Movement of HQ to assembly areas
High radio traffic between english and american units
production of a big moveable harbour

Forces
50 Inf Div
8 Airborne div
14 pz Brig
15 pz Div

Air rec was not flown in the first half of april so accurate position of units are not known (end of april)
Big concentration of landing boats in south england ( Poole - Portsmouth and Harwich - Great Yarmouth) Possible also in english channels (fjords).
American armor landing boats are mounted in english harbours.
Allied air forces show signs of preparing for invasion shortly

Troops:
South england: about 750.000
Middle england: about 650.000

In a report from the Kriegsmarine, the invasion are expected in june - july in france

Best from Norway
Olve

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Thank you, gentlemen, for the additional information. The following is from Hitler's Secret Commandos by Helmut Blocksdorf, originally published in German.

"Initially it had been Hitler himself who suspected Normandy as a possible destination for invasion. In May 1944 radio specialists of 15 Army (Generaloberst von Salmuth) and, independently, a Luftwffe signals company stationed in Guernsey, predicted that beyond a doubt the invasion would be at Normandy. Both passed their reports to Rommel's Army group Staff. 15 Army raised the alarm, but 7 Army (General Dollmann) and other coastal units which lay directly in the path of the invasion remained stood down. After the Allied landings began, battleworthy divisions such as 21 Pz. Div. and 12 SS-Pz. Div. Hitler Jugend received no orders for days. ... Many military specialists agree that a single battleworthy German division would have decided the invasion in Germany's favour provided the division could have, or was permitted to, become involved in events immediately as they unfolded. If all this muddle was due solely to operational mismanagement or the failures of the OKH is open to question."


The following is from On Special Missions by Smith, Creek and Petrick.


"The Allied invasion was running full tilt. I assumed that Kommando Goetz was moving west and reported our two jets [Ar 234s] ready for action. I also had a Ju 352 as a transport aircraft. Nothing happened! The traitors in the highest leadership positions did not want the invasion to be interfered with. On 17 July, we finally received permision (not orders) to fly to Juvincourt on the Invasion Front."



Best,
Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hmm...I think even more military specialists would disagree. Quite how any German division could move a significant amount on the day in the teeth of Allied air power is totally unclear - look at the reported delays of those which tried.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

In my 50+ years of intensely studying this subject both in the English and German literature, the first paragraph you provided above is right on the money. I would only add that the troops on the coast were also "Alert Happy". "Wolf" had been cried so many times by the higher commands in the West during the 6 to 8 months preceding D-Day that the lower commands at Armee, Korps and Division level were sick of the constant alerts and had protested repeatedly up the chain of command. So, along comes May 1944 with some good intelligence finally in hand, only to find Oberbefehlshaber West and Luftflotte 3 reluctant to call yet another alert. The "cry wolf" theory worked!

The second paragraph above is hearsay and not consistent with the historical record. It sounds like a quote taken from one of the postwar S.I.R. reports (secret listening devices planted in the rooms housing captured high and higher ranking Luftwaffe officers who had been taken to the U.K. after the war for interrogation - most of the taped conversations were conspiratorial in nature in which alleged July 20th "traitors" were blamed for everything). Anyone who has read some of the transcripts of these conversations will agree with me. Some of the things said are - in hindsight - a real hoot!

Larry

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Ed: after my earlier post on this subject, I was nagged by a half-remembered passage from British Intelligence. I found it in vol 3, part 1, Chapter 38, page 326 ‘The German Air Offensive against the UK’

“After increasing during February despite the withdrawal of two of Peltz's bomber Gruppen for operations against Anzio - a movement that was disclosed by the Enigma at the end of January - the scale and tempo of the offensive declined from the beginning of March. At the same time, the GAF diverted some of its effort away from London to Bristol and Hull in the belief that they harboured invasion shipping. * And after the night of 18-19 April, when piloted aircraft carried out their last raid of the war against London, it devoted almost all its remaining effort to ineffective attacks against the ports where shipping was collecting for Overlord. On 25-26 April all Peltz's available bombers were thrown into two attacks on Portsmouth. Four further raids on Portsmouth followed before the end of the month. On 29-30 April 100 bombers, twelve of them carrying the FX bomb, attacked a concentration of ships, including the battleship King George V, at Plymouth. In all these attacks bombing was widely scattered and did little damage. In May, despite a change in the GAF's Pathfinding techniques, two large raids - against Bristol on 14-15 May and against Portsmouth on the following night - failed-to reach the target, and smaller raids against other south coast ports did little damage in return for heavy losses. In June - following the Normandy landings - the GAF confined its operations over the United Kingdom to intruder raids against East Anglian airfields. Except that it briefly returned to such attacks in March 1945, an intruder raid on the night of 27-28 June was the last major attack of the war on the United Kingdom by piloted aircraft. The Enigma, which had given warning of the imminence of the offensive and accurate information about the size of the forces the GAF planned to devote to it, provided little intelligence about the offensive once it had begun. It occasionally confirmed that the GAF's radio aids had been rendered ineffective by jamming. Before the FX raid of 29-30 April it disclosed that FX bombs had been brought into Bordeaux and that the GAF had knowledge of the battleships in Plymouth.

* A GAF Enigma signal decrypted on 23 February reported the receipt of information to the effect that Bristol was full of important invasion shipping.”

Refs are quoted if you want to follow up.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Thank you, Bruce, for your time and effort. This information is very helpful. I have not spent decades, as some here, tracking down everything relevant but I'm continuing to check new sources. One is a book titled German Penetration of SOE, which I do not have yet. I am also looking into what the Germans may have known about the departure of large numbers of troop ships from the American east coast, as well as vessels carrying ammunition and vehicles.



Regards,
Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

hi ed,

just a quick question, have you stopped posting ebay links for a reason, or are you just to busy.:)

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Periodically in HW5 series Ultra files you will find a section headed "Attention Signals Security Officers" which sets out what the Germans are deducing from Allied signals traffic about the strength, location and intentions of Allied units. Essentially the Allies are watching the Germans watching the Allies ...

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

It surprise me that nobody in this thread is talking about checking german documents about what they knew about the preparation for D-Day


Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hmmm. The ULTRA intercepts that Nick Beale has commented on are German documents. The books cited in this thread, Kahn et al, are based on thorough research of the surviving German documents. Do you know of some surviving German documents that should be examined that the world has not seen yet? This is one of the highest interest questions from all of World War II and I know of no other that has received more scrutiny from historians and scholars. I think today, 65 years ex post facto, it can be safely said that there are no yet-to-be-revealed "smoking guns" out there on what the Germans knew or didn't know about the long-expected invasion. The Germans were deceived, bamboozled and hornswoggled by the Allied "Bodyguard of Lies" into believing the invasion would occur in the Pas de Calais area defended by AOK 15. It didn't matter what AOK 7 in Normandy or OB West thought, it only mattered what OKW and the Führer thought. And they only thought one thing: Pas de Calais probably in June.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Larry: exactly.
Regards,
Bruce

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hi John,

I have not been posting eBay links because I have been very busy and was ill for a brief period. Hopefully, I will get back to it soon. Thanks for asking.



Ed

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Well, since this thread is about german aerial recon prior to D-day, I suppose the question here is what the germans knew about which allied unit who was based where in england in spring 1944. And how they collected that info. Not how the allied tricked the germans about the landing site. Everybody knows that. And since your books tell little about it, it seems that this topic is not so thorough research as you tell. Probably because historians normally don't goes in detail about such stuff.

And Ultra is not a german document

Best again from Norway
Olve

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Well, since this thread is about german aerial recon prior to D-day, I suppose the question here is what the germans knew about which allied unit who was based where in england in spring 1944. And how they collected that info. Not how the allied tricked the germans about the landing site. Everybody knows that. And since your books tell little about it, it seems that this topic is not so thorough research as you tell. Probably because historians normally don't goes in detail about such stuff.
And Ultra is not a german document
Best again from Norway
Olve

Then what do you think it is? It's the untranslated and translated verbatim transcript of an encrypted German message intercepted and decrypted by British signals intelligence.

As for German knowledge of Allied units in the U.K. in spring 1944, there are loads of documents in the Ic Fremde Heere West/OKH collection (NARA T-78) and Ic Fremde Luftwaffe West/Ob.d.L. collection (NARA T-321). They are quite detailed - but not very accurate - down to infantry/armored division and air group level, but what's the point? There is a big difference between having knowledge of an enemy's order of battle and acting on it. This thread is about D-Day and what the Germans knew about troop buildups and shipping concentrations and what that might say about where the invasion might be expected. All the OB intelligence gave them was partially accurate information on units, over all size, and some details on locations. But they still did not know where or exactly when.

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

What's the point ?

Ehhhhhhhhhh trying to answer the question that was raised in this thread:

Can anyone point me to a source that describes Luftwaffe flights over England just prior to D-Day?

Or should we don't bother since the germans lost the war ?

And if Ultra is a german document or a british transcript of an encrypted German message, depends probably of whom you ask

Olve :-)

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Hello Ed
Re your message #16, 21.PzD was released for use on 6.6. at 6:45am and was moving towards British Paras on eastern bank of Orne at 9:00am and 12.SSPzD got its order to concentrate for the move to coast at around 7:00am on 6.6., so they definitely got orders on the D-Day.

Juha

Re: Luftwaffe aerial recon prior to D-Day
 

Thank you, Juha. Still, it appears things were confused (at least) for a number of days. I hesitate to speculate but just as local German newspapers were scanned by Allied agents to get a more accurate idea of German war dead, I wonder if German agents in the U.S. were able to communicate the movements of large numbers of men and equipment prior to D-Day by checking local sources. I now have a better appreciation of the difficulty of German aircraft flying over British territory at the time.




Ed