4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello,

on 2 May 1945, 6:15 a.m., F/O G. Lord & F/Sgt B.W. Woodman of 130 Squadron (Spitfire XIV) claimed 4 out of 5 Bü 131 near Schwerin Lake in Germany (taken from Shores/Thomas: 2nd Tactical Air Force).

As the Bü 131 was a biplane, I wonder if the Bü 131 should indeed read Bü 181?
Does anybody have access to the original combat report and can tell if the pilots have spoken about biplanes?

Thank you very much.

Christian

www.nachtschlacht.de

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Shores & Thomas's "2nd Tactical Air Force Vol. 4" does refer to these as biplanes but I don't know if that's their comment, or something from the original Squadron records.

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello Christian

This is how the day's activities were reported in the 125 Wing ORB

2/5/45

With the enemy pocket shrinking rapidly, great care had to be exercised before any ground targets could be attacked. We started off with a rush, 5 aircraft of 130 Squadron on the first patrol saw 4 Buckner 131’s at 0615 hours near LAKE SCHWERIN at zero feet. Our aircraft were at 5,000 ft and they immediately attacked. The result was 2 destroyed by F/O Lord, 1 destroyed by F/Sgt Woodman and 1 destroyed shared between these two pilots. At 0850 hours a section of 4 aircraft of 130 Squadron saw a ME109 in the circuit of SCHWERIN A/D at 1,000ft. Our A/C dived on to it from 5,000ft and P/O Edwards and P/O Mertons shared in its destruction. A large concentration of MET was seen from CRIVITZ to SCHWERIN. It appeared to be unable to move either way. After careful reconnaissance this was duly clobbered by a section of 4 aircraft of 350 Squadron to the tune of 55 damaged. Later in the morning, 3 Fiesler Storches were seen by a section of 41 Squadron flying North at zero feet near SCHWERIN A/F. Two of these were destroyed by W/O Chalmers and one destroyed and one damaged by F/O Smith. We suffered a loss during the afternoon when F/L Stowe got mixed up in the debris from ground targets and had to crash land west of SCHWERIN LAKE either in our lines or just beyond them. He is believed to be safe and we all look forward to seeing him in a few days. We had another victory at 17.10 hours when P/O Watkins, F/Lt Bangerter, F/Sgt King and F/O Van Eckh shared in the destruction of an Arado 234. The Enemy aircraft was trying to land when attacked and a ME262 in the same area only got away owing to superior speed. That concluded our joy except for MET to the tune of 2 destroyed and 13 damaged clobbered by 130 Squadron, and a loco and 5 trucks damaged by 350 Squadron.

SALUTE TO THE HOMER – we learn today that they men who man the Homer successfully landed their one thousand and first aircraft.
__________________________________________________ ______


I also have the 130 squadron ORB - which is on a PDF in my files - and it confirms the 125 Wing report as being correct: 4 Bu 131's were attacked and destroyed. Lord destroying 2, Woodman 1 and shared 1 - thus I can confirm that the information was passed from the squadron upwards to the Wing daily report, and, unless an error occurred in recognition, it was indeed Bu 131's and not Bu 181's. To further check the report I enlarged the text by 300% and it is clearly 131 and not 181.

Hope it helps?

cheers

Allan

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Allan

Just curious as always. With regard to the THREE Fi 156 seen and attacked how can the pilots destroy THREE and damage ONE. My maths make this FOUR aeroplanes in all.....

Are you perhaps making an error or is this what is stated?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello Stig

Good point :) - but exactly as written in the 125 Wing ORB, of which I possess the whole document from June '43 - July '45

Perhaps Steve Brew (41 squadron website) might like to add what is written in the 41 squadron ORB for this event.

cheers

Allan

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Thanks Allan

Checking Shores "ace" books I can only locate Chalmers in Those other Eagles, where he is listed with his two victories on said day, so at least they got confirmed.
ALso checked Foremans book Fighter Command war diaries July 1944-May 1945 he states that three Fi 156 were destroyed in the air and another was damaged during strafing on the ground....

That is most probably the solution.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello Stig

You are most probably correct - the 41 Squadron ORB probably contains the full report, most likely a précis would have been passed to the higher HQ, and the 125 Wing diarist simply wrote up what he was given.

Or, alternatively, he had the full story and just shortened it without thinking that it would be questioned 64 years later!! :)

However, I have e-mailed Steve Brew the link to this series of queries - so we can see just what was reported in the 41 squadron ORB if/when he responds.

I trust that Christian is happy with the answer that he has been given?

cheers

Allan

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Thanks again Allan

You're dead right there, TOCH, every past diarist nightmare :p.
Just kiding of course, but judging from our interest, I think we should be very happy indeed that so many diarist fulfilled a to them extremely boring job with as many details as they did. Sure enough we always complain about too little, and why did they miss out this or that, but as a whole I think they have made a very good job. And if there was nothing to check and correct, TOCH wouldn't be half as fun as it is....:)

I certainly hope Christian is happy with your answer Allan, since I am!!

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hi Stig

Chalmers claimed two Fieseler Storche destroyed and Roy Austen-Smith one destroyed in the air and one damaged on the ground - so there were still only three airborne Fi156. I can send you the page from the ORB and both Chalmers' and Smith's Combat Reports if you would like to see them. If so, please contact me off-board at brewATclientsDOTch

Regards
Steve

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Thanks Steve

I take your word for it :). I guess Allan and I already had agreed on the scenario you now confirm is correct.

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello Christian

Now that you have been supplied confirmation of the Bu131's destroyed by 130 (Punjab) Squadron, and additional information on the Fi156 victims of 41 Squadron, are you able to provide any unit details of either of them please?

cheers

Allan

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Is it still war or Hunting ??

Remi

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

German: Jaeger = hunter
French: Chasseur = hunter
USA: Pursuit plane = hunter
Italy: Cacciatore = hunter

A hunt is rarely the same as a fair fight.

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello Remi

I would have said that on 2 May '45 it was "business as usual" - with substantial German forces still in being in Denmark, Norway and Czechoslovakia, plus the (mythical) Alpine Redoubt - Allied air and ground forces had no reason to do anything else than keep up the pressure.

The Bu 131's and Fi 156's could have contained senior officers attempting to escape to somewhere more secure?

If you look back to the 125 Wing ORB on page 1 you can clearly see that large amounts of MET were still in existence and also at least one Me 262 and an Ar 234 were still operational in 125 Wing's area, and they probably weren't alone.

cheers

Allan

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hi Allan,

first I have to say sorry for the late reply, but my job and my small son keep me from looking into 12o´clock high frequently ;-)
Please let me thank you very much for sharing this valuable information with me/us.

You wrote:
"...5 aircraft of 130 Squadron on the first patrol saw 4 Buckner 131’s at 0615 hours near LAKE SCHWERIN at zero feet."

This means that 4 (!) Bü 131 have been destroyed on the ground (zero feet), right?!

According to Shores & Thomas's "2nd Tactical Air Force", Vol. 3, p.523f: "...Just after 0600 five Spitfire XIV pilots of 130 Squadron caught five Bu 131 biplane trainers near the Schwerin Lake - possibly returning from a night 'nuisance' raid. In moments four of the five were shot down, two by Fig Off Geoff Lord, one by Flt Sgt B.W.Woodman, and one shared between them..."

So, Shores & Thomas must have made a mistake here?

Unfortunately, I do not know the units these Bü 131 or the other Fi 156 came from, sorry. But I guess they have not been on a combat mission before.

Thank you once again.
Best wishes,
Christian

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

...just noticed that "zero feet" does not mean "on the ground". (...flying at zero feet...) Sorry, I´m German...
However, it is still not known if these planes have been Bü 131 or Bü 181, because they do not speak about biplanes in the combat report. Or in the other report?

Christian

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hello Christian

Pleased to have helped you - pity you don't know the units involved on the Luftwaffe side, maybe if not returning from a night "nuisance" raid they were from a training unit in the Wittenburg/Schwerin area?

The 125 Wing ORB refers to "....4 Bucker 131's at 06.15 hours.." so whilst I apologise for the typo in adding an "n" to Bucker I have no idea as to whether it was actually 4, or 5 as in the 130 report.

And, as I wasn't there, I have no idea whether it was at 06.05 or 06.15 and whether they were actually biplanes 131's or monoplane 181's, and I don't have the combat reports (unfortunately)

The actual 130 Squadron ORB record is as follows;

"......At 05.45 hours, 5 of our aircraft took off to patrol Wittenburg. At 06.05 hours, 5 Bu 131's were sighted flying at zero feet near Schwerin Lake, and these were duly attacked by F/O Lord and F/Sgt Woodman the former destroying 2 and the latter 1; a fourth was also destroyed (shared)....." so Thomas & Shores correctly reported what was in the squadron ORB, but absolutely no mention is made of what happened to the 5th one, if it existed??!!

I am presuming that it was a typo, and 4 was correctly submitted to the 125 Wing scribe verbally for his precis of the day's Wing operations as I am sure somebody senior would have asked what happened to no. 5?

If you need any more information about 125 Wing's activities at that time feel free to drop me an e-mail at allan(dot)hillman(at)btinternet(dot)com.

cheers

Allan

p.s. no apology needed "Sorry, I´m German..." as your written English is better than my German!! :)

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hi Allan,

thank you very much, you are welcome.
My interest in the Bü 131/181 is because my new book is about the Panzerjäger Bü 181 units and Nachtschlachtkommandos.

Meanwhile, I have tried to find out more about the units which have been stationed around Schwerin at that time.

Biplanes might have come from NSGr. 8 or 4./NSGr. 5 (if Bü 131 might have been mixed with Ar 66 and/or Go 145):
NSGr. 8 was at Parchim until 2 May 1945, then Kaltenkirchen and finally Eggebek (20km S Flensburg). On 19 April they still had 34/33 Ju 87, 8/6 Go 145 and 3/2 Ar 66 (Go 145 and Ar 66 to 3./NSGr. 8). In Eggebek just one Ar 66, but 27 Ju 87 have been found.
Also, most probably 4./NSGr. 5 was operating under NSGr. 8. On 16 April 1945 this squadron had 9/8 Go 145 and 7/4 Ar 66. The last information about their location I have is dated 23 March 1945: Neuhardenberg.

Additionally, 1. Panzerfauststaffel Bü 181 was located in Parchim on 30 April, then Ludwigslust, Kaltenkirchen and finally Eggebek.
Nachtschlachtkommando 4 (Bü 181) was set up around 26 March 1945 in Schwerin at FFS A72 (the school was dissolved from March 1945 on). They probably moved to Grossenbrode around 30 April 1945.
Also, Nachtschlachtkommando 2 (Ar 96) moved from Celle to Schwerin on 9 April 1945. Around 30 April 1945 they moved to Warnemünde.

Regarding the Fi 156:
Oberst Helbig, Commodore of the Lehrgeschwader 1, on 30 April 1945 was ordered by the 14th Flieger Division to take over a commando of ten Fi 156 on the airport Schwerin-Görries. They should fly to Berlin in the night to 1 May 1945 and rescue important documents and couriers. Helbig later reported that a landing in Berlin was not possible because the visibility was too poor, so he returned to Schwerin via Perleberg. He never heard anything about the other pilots (see Taghon, Peter: History of Lehrgeschwaders 1, Vol. 2: 1942-1945, 1. edition, Zweibrücken/Germany 2004, p. 435-437).

Well, this is all I can contribute at the moment.

Best regards,

Christian

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hi Christian

Many thanks for the excellent write-up from a Luftwaffe perspective - quite a fair exchange for the information from Steve Brew and myself.

I would tend to think that the Bu 131's and Fi 156's came from some of the units that you have mentioned.

cheers

Allan

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Guys

With regard to the option Bu 131 or Bu 181 I think the aspect in itself is wrong. What the pilot actually identifies initially is that this is a biplane. His next thought regarding type is what comes into his mind. As far as I am concerned the important thing is that what he/they see in this case are biplanes. I don't think anyone (us included) would have had the time to contemplate it this was Bu 131, Ar 66 or Go 145 or possibly something else. The pilot(s) choses what he thinks is relevant and a type he would be familliar with and also a type that is "on his lips" for better of for worth.
Once your mind is set, nothing will change that....

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hi Stig,

yes you are right.
However, there are two aspects, I think:
In case the pilots have seen biplanes it could have been Bü 131, Ar 66 or Go 145 or maybe even Fw 44. That´s because I have listed the units equipped with biplanes.
However, in the combat reports it is not clearly stated that the planes have been biplanes. Thus - for me - there is still a chance that in fact they have been Bü 181. [or at least I hope so ;-)]
Also, the question for me is how familiar the Allied pilots have been with German planes and their designations? Especially in this case: 131 or 181 may be mixed up quite easily.

Usually, the Bü 181 was the standard training plane and successor of biplanes such as Bü 131, Fw 44 and so on.
The chance to hit a Bü 181 during April/May 1945 was bigger than to meet a Bü 131, I guess.

Well, after all it is just speculation and I will let you know any news I come across in this case.

Regards,

Christian

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hallo Christian

Vielen Dank. A few thoughts, based on information you have kindly provided in your replies.

1. You may wish to have a look at the link provided by edwest in his post "German a/C interned Switzerland" on this site, as it shows four Bü181 and an FW44 interned in 1945.

2. In his memoirs of this period, which are deposited with the Imperial War Museum here in London, Flt. Lt. John Wilkinson relates a story about when 41 Squadron arrived at Celle on 16 April 1945. He describes how he found that the Luftwaffe had left a number of aircraft scattered around the airfield and in the surrounding forest. Some had been smashed with sledgehammers and others burned. However, using good pieces from a number of different aircraft, he, Flt. Lt. Farfan and Flt. Lt. Fisher built their own composite aircraft, painted it yellow, added RAF roundels, and managed to get it to fly. The aircraft they (re-)built they believed to have been a Bücker 181, which remained with the Squadron during their future moves.

3. I was interested in your mentions of the Fieseler Storche flying to Berlin and back, and was wondering if these might have been the same aircraft (or the same unit) as claimed by 41 Squadron's pilots Chalmers and Fisher. As I don't have the book you mention (Taghon, Peter, Geschichte des Lehrgeschwaders 1, Vol. 2: 1942-1945, 1. Ausgabe, Zweibrücken/Germany 2004, p. 435-437), would it be possible to obtain a scan of this from you, please?

Danke im voraus
Steve

Re: 4 Bü 131 claimed on 2 May 1945 by 130 Squadron
 

Hi Steve,

thank you very much for this additional information.
I know the "Switzerland Bü 181" from Panzerfauststaffel 3 at Dübendorf. Also the story of 41 Squadron is very interesting.
I have mailed the scans via your homepage. Hope they arrived?

Best wishes,

Christian