looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi,

I'm looking for info on a crashed HE111 from 5 or 6 Staffel II/KG53

The HE111 crashed in 1941 at or close to Kuzemki (kusemki) in Russia, see map. The first losses in Russia of II/KG53 6 staffel are on 29.6.41 for 5 staffel on 1.7.41.

Any info that could help is appreciated.

Kind regards, Thomas

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

The only loss by 6/KG 53 on 29 Jun 41 was Wk Nr 6999 A1+CT. I wrote about this loss in 'Flypast' last year-3 crew were captured and presumed to have been shot, 2 crew managed to get back to German lines. However, you need to be more precise with the date

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi Chris,

The only info I have is a picture of the crashed HE111, with the II. Gruppe abzeichen clearly seen, but not a clear shot on the kennung. Could be A1+C or M, well this is my guess, will upload the picture later.

The back of the picture says "bei Kusemki 1941"

Because 4. Staffel had his own abzeichen, I would say this is a 5th or 6th Staffel plane.

The dates I gave tell me (us), that this plane crashed between 26th June 1941 (Schmauz plane, from your article) and 19th December 1941, the last plane that came down because of enemy fire in 1941 and which belonged to 5. Staffel.

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

This is the picture of the plane. By looking at the kennung again, I don't think it's an 'M' Because of the round corner.

So maybe it is A1+C?

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Version is He 111 H-6 or later (VS wood props).

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Morning Chris,
is the code you give for W.Nr 6999 correct?
i have this a/c as A1+BP and not A1+CT which would have been with 9/KG53!

Are you refering to the loss of Uffz Franz Paisdzior and crew, from your article?

best regs,
Steve.

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

BP-more haste less speed and yes, it was last year's Flypast article

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Many thanks Chris.

So we still need a candidate for Thomas's photo, any other information from anybody?

Chris, did you see my post regarding Kagerbauer KG54 29.5.09 under the heading JU88 Crashed on Portland 11.8.40 ?
Was wondering if you have any further info this chap.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Thanks for the replies so far.

Some questions that could help narrowing down which plane this could be:

- Am I correct that it is a plane from 5th or 6st Staffel? or did Stabstaffel and 4th Staffel also use this staffelabzeichen? I know 4th Staffel had its own abzeichen, but don't know if it was used in 1941

- On the 4th of August 1941 the Geschwader bombed Moscow for the first time. Did II/KG53 before go so far East?

- When did the cold weather start in 1941? I don't see snow on the picture and the soldier isn't dressed for cold weather. (couldn't find the answer on google)

- I guess this was an emergency/crash landing, this will exclude planes that exploded in the air, air collision or planes that really fell from the skies for other reasons.

- I'm don't have much knowledge about kennung on planes. Can the fact that the second part of the kennung starts with a white letter give some info?

Thanks in advance, Thomas

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi, Thomas...

I think the aircraft in your photo is A1+CP. My reasoning for this is as follows:

The unit emblem under the cockpit has a dark band underneath the bomb. I believe this was red, and indicitive of the II.Gruppe, whose I/D colour was red. I am also aware, however, that at least one source suggests it as being the unit badge for the entire Geschwader, but this would then beg the question - why the need for a red horizontal band?

If, for a moment, we agree that it is II.Gruppe, then the Staffeln within II.Gruppe would have been 4. 5. & 6.Staffel. I would say we could discount 5.Staffel, as the letter 'C' is, in my opinion, clearly not red (5.Staffel I/D colour), so it would either be white or yellow. Personally, I think it's yellow. It doesn't seem quite as light as the white outline of the fuselage cross, and the front section of the propellor spinners, more often than not painted in the Staffel colour, seem darker in shade to the white background of the unit emblem, so I think they are yellow, thus pointing to the possibility of the letter 'C' being yellow as well, and therefore suggestive of the fact that the last letter would be the 6.Staffel indicator, 'P'.

This is only my opinion, though, and others may well disagree. Interesting photo, though... :D.

Regards...

Paul

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Here are most of the II./KG 53 losses from 22 June to 31 December 1941. Kuzemki is a real place and located 86.5 km south of Vyazma and 17.2 km east of Spas-Demensk.

29 Jun 41: (Lfl.2) - 6.St. He 111H-4 (A1+BP) FTR from ops in the Smolensk area, 100%, 5 MIA.
1 Jul 41: (Lfl.2) - 2 He 111H-4s from 5.St. (A1+CN,GN) FTR from ops in the Mogilev-Dashkovska area, one of which was rammed by a Russian fighter, caught fire and crashed, 100%, 11 MIA.
2 Jul 41: (Lfl.2) - 5.St. He 111H-5 (A1+AN) FTR from ops in the Mogilev area, 100%, Oblt. Karl Bonfeld + 4 MIA.
9 Jul 41: transferred from Radom to Minsk-Dubinskaya.
24 Jul 41: (lfl.2) - 4.St. He 111H-6 struck obstacle at Orsha, 95%, 4 KIA and 1 WIA.
4 Aug 41: transferred to Orsha.
23 Aug 41: switched over to day attacks on retreating Russian columns and other tactical targets in the Chernigov-Konotop-Sumy area in northern Ukraine to 24 Sep, then concentrated on the railway lines around Kaluga to the southwest of Moscow.
1 Oct 41: transferred from Orsha to Shatalovka-East to provide tactical support for Operation “Taifun”, the planned envelopment offensive aimed at taking Moscow.
12 Oct 41: (Lfl.2) - 6.St. He 111H-6 (A1+BP) shot down by AA fire over Mozhaisk/114 km NE of Vyazma, 100%, 5 MIA.
14 Oct 41: (Lfl.2) - 4.St. He 111H-5 (A1+PK) FTR from ops in the Vyazma area, 100%, 5 MIA.
23 Oct 41: (Lfl.2) - 2 He 111H-6s FTR from ops in the Mtsensk area/NE of Orel, 100%, 10 MIA.
29 Oct 41: (Lfl.2) - He 111H-6 (A1+LN) shot down by fighters during ops in the Serpukhov area/S of Moscow, 100%, 5 MIA.
11 Nov 41: (Lfl.2) - He 111H-6 (A1+AC) FTR from ops vic of Nikolskaya, 100%, 5 MIA.
22 Nov 41: (Lfl.2) - He 111H-6 (A1+CM) FTR from ops in vic of Tula/170 km S of Moscow, 100%, 5 MIA.
26 Nov 41: (Lfl.2) - He 111H-6 (A1+AN) FTR from ops in Pl.Qu.8614, 100%, Hptm. Emil Peters + 4 MIA.
28 Nov 41: (Lfl.2) - He 111H-6 shot up and force landed near Gzhatsk/58 km NE of Vyazma, 30%.
19 Dec 41: (VIII.Fl.K.) - 3 He 111H-6s FTR or shot down by AA fire near Gorbachevo/NE of Orel, all 100%, Oblt. Karl Benfeld + 4 MIA.
20 Dec 41: (VIII.Fl.K.) - He 111H-6 shot down by AA fire near Dyatkovo/39 km N of Bryansk, 100%.
25 Dec 41: (VIII.Fl.K.) - He 111H-6 shot down by AA fire at Tymeshevo, 100%.
30 Dec 41: (VIII.Fl.K.) - He 111H-6 (A1+KN) FTR from ops in the Kalinin area, 100%, 5 MIA.

I don't see any that seem to fit. Maybe someone else does.

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi Paul, Thanks for your reply!

I don't know if the code A1+CP is unique or that it was used again later in the war? This thread http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=7795 lists the A1+CP as loss on the 28.8.1944 (6th staffel)

I only know this emblem with the red band, but do know it with two different birds. I don't know if a different bird was used by a different staffel? And did Stab staffel have an own emblem?

Thanks for clearing this, I wasn't aware of the colour meaning. I see that there is still a lot to learn for me on the kennung from planes.

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the list! I also don't see any at this moment that would fit in. May I ask from which source you got this info?

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

From the same source all of us here get our loss information from:

BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle bei den fliegende Verbände.

These can be obtained from BA-MA's duplications jobber, Selke, or on 12 rolls of 35mm microfilm from the Imperial War Museum in London.

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi, Thomas...

In answer to your comments, the specific code A1+CP, would have been used on a particular aircraft, but if for whatever reason, that aircraft was no longer available and the unit received a replacement, the replacement would likely have had the same code applied, hence the reason why aircraft with identical codes can be lost, for example, in 1940 during the Battle of Britain, but a similarly-coded machine could be recorded as lost over the Balkans in 1941, the latter perhaps being the replacement for the original loss, or indeed, the replacement for the original replacement, circumstances dictating! It can also explain why an He111 is recorded with the code, and later also a Ju88. In the interim period, the unit may also have changed aircraft types.

I can't really say anything else about the unit emblem, other than I've always known this particular representation as being the II.Gruppe emblem.

As for codes in general, it took me years to work them out... :D. However, if you go to this site www.luftarchiv.de and follow the headings on the left side menu: Luftfahrtindustrie, Kennzeichen, Motorflugzeuge and finally select 1939-45, you will find all codings explained to you, in colour, for all front-line combat types. It should be noted that most Geschwadern generally had three Gruppen, each again with three Staffeln. However, ocassionally, some units had four Staffeln per Gruppe, for example, Transportgeschwadern and some Jagdgeschwadern late in the war, and thus the general colour codings were slightly different and Staffeln were 'shunted' from one Gruppe into another, but this is all detailed for you at the above-mentioned site. Despite it being in German, the codings section should be easy enough for you to follow.

As ever, though, never assume anything with the Luftwaffe. Its ability to confuse without warning is legendary, but essentially this is what makes it a very interesting subject. Hope you find the above site a useful pointer to what should, generally, be the case.

Regards...

Paul

Re: looking for info on a crashed HE111 from II/KG53
 

Hi

I have for this day 29.06.1941 three names for a loss of the II.Gruppe 6.Staffel KG 53

Paisdzior Franz Uffz. FF
Wind Theophil Gefr. BS
Obst Heinz Gefr. BS

All MIA

Kiehl. KG 53

Regards

Rüdiger