Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Received a MACR by Footnote. Based on that the P-61 was shot down by friendly fire at April 26th 45 in south of Germany. The Serial # is: 42-39559. So far everything is clear.
But on page 4 there is written the following:
Two American Night Fighters shot down by friendly flak over Dillingen Bridghead last night.
Does anybody know details about the second one mentioned on page 4?? Based on this statement there must be a second one, right?

Thanks in advance
Rolf

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hi Rolf

I can't answer your question (at the moment) but do you have the names and fates of the crew of '559? And the unit?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hi Brian,

as requested here the info:
Pilot: 2nd Lt Thomas Erasius Cartmel O-774016 KIA
Radar Observer: 2nd Lt Harold Anton Anderson O-872250 KIA

Rolf

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hallo Rolf and Brian,

There is a very brief reference to this loss (one only) in QUEEN OF THE MIDNIGHT SKIES by Garry R.Pape and Ronald C. Harrison, subtitled 'The Story of America's Air Force Night Fighters'. It notes the 417th NFS lost one P-61 to 'friendly' anti-aircraft fire while protecting the bridgeheads at Ulm, Dillingen and Donauworth in late April 1945. No crew names, aircraft serial or even exact date.

Hope this helps,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Just a possibility: Rolf has identified two aircrew. Is there any chance the MACR comment referes to the two FLIERS shot down on that date, rather than two AIRCRAFT?

Bruce

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hi Rolf

I couldn't find a second loss for this date in the USAAF serial numbers list, in which '559 is shown as lost over the Mediterranean on this date!!

Perhaps the 'second' loss referred to another type, not a P-61? Were any US units flying Mosquito NFs?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

The book "Northrop's Night Hunter- P-61 Black Widow" by Jeff Kolln lists the fate of every P-61 built, and according to this list only '559 was lost on this date as shot down by friendly fire. Cartmell and Anderson both mentioned as KIA.
If there was a second U.S. night fighter shot down on this date, it will have to be another type.

Stein

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Good evening Stein !

Is this P-61 book still avaiable ?. If so, please give me a note, how to gain it. There was a similar event in end of December 1944 in Luxembourg.

Thank you !

Horst Weber

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hei Stein,
thanks for the info. Could you please do me a favour and have a short look regarding P-61 Serial # 42-39670.
There is nothing written in the MACR I mentioned but it would be very interesting for me whether the serial # really fitting to a P-61 and the fate accordingly. Thanks in advance
Rolf

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hallo Brian,

I believe the Mediterranean angle may have come about from the 417th NFS being part of the 1st Tactical Air Force which was supporting the Allied advance from the south of France towards the south of Germany.
The 417th NFS had moved to Giebelstadt in Germany only on 24 April 1945 from St. Dizier in France, a few days before the loss of the P-61 in question.

Hope this helps,

Martin.

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hi Horst!
The book should still be available, published by SpecialtyPress (www.specialtypress.com) in 2008. I bought my copy at the NASM museum shop in Washington D.C. earlier this year

From the list:
488. c/n 1189 P-61B-15-NO 42-39670
Available 1/13/45. Accepted 1/12/45. To Newark, NJ 1/18/45. It left the U.S. by transport 2/7/45 for Europe. To the 415th NFS 2/15/45. To storage 6/2/45. Stricken 2/8/46.

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Hello,

Details from the J.Baugher webpages.

26-4-1945
414NFS
42-39686 - W/off in Take off accident Pontedera, Italy.
417NFS
42-39559 - Lost over the Med , MACR 14078.
422NFS
42-5565 - landing accident Liege, Belgium.

Alex

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

Greetings, I do not know if this would help, but I have a 417th NFS pilot who attends our annual Air Show in Camarillo, CA. He initially flew the P-51 but was later assigned to the 417th which was moved to France in early 1945. He completed 12 missions before the war ended.
Cordially, Art Fiedler

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

On April 26, 1945, P-61B-10-NO, AAF SN 42-39559, was shot down by friendly fire at approximately 2130. It was from the 417th NFS, flying out of Giebelstadt, Germany, flying a night intruder mission in defense of the Ulm-Dillingen Bridgehead. The location of the crash site was recorded as "Vicinity Altishein, Germany T 30821"

The pilot was 2LT Thomas E. Cartmell USAAF (my uncle), flying his first combat mission. IDPF records suggest a catastrophic crash and burn. The radar operator was 2LT Hal Anderson, who bailed out before the crash but because of the low altitude, his parachute did not fully deploy and he was killed on impact. Tom is buried at the AMC in St. Avold, France, and Hal was buried in the U.S.

More details of the loss, plus transcribed letters of Lieutenant Cartmell during his training and wartime service can be found at https://brooksidepress.org/cartmell/

Mike Hughey

Re: Shot down of 2 Black Widows by freindly Fire
 

I am a nephew of LT Thomas E Cartmell USAAF, the pilot of the P-61B that was shot down by American friendly fire on April 26, 1945, while on a night intruder mission over the Dillingen Bridgehead. After reviewing the burial records contained in his IDPF file, the site of the crash was identified as in the vicinity of Altishein, T 308201 (military map coordinates). I had a knowledgable friend help me translate this location into contemporary coordinates of 48.73777 10.87816. Tom was initially buried in the German military cemetery in Reutti. His remains were later moved to the US military cemetery in St. Avold, France.

I have produced a website that provides more detail about the incident, and moreover a collection of all of his wartime letters written to his family. I've also posted all of the related documents (flight logs, etc.) that belonged to him or were related to him. You can view this site at https://brooksidepress.org/cartmell/