A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

...somewhere over Hungary;

Guys:

I don't have access to lots of my Axis Airforces stuff so I am turning to you guys: I got a new book as a gift & one of the stories involved a squadron of the 14th Fighter Group who were escorting Bombers 'somewhere over Hungary(sorry I forgot the target)' on June 14, 1944 & got bounced by a large gaggle of Me109s-I don't know if they were Hungarian or German or both...anyhoo, the squadron lost 5 planes & claimed something like 13 of the opposition;

ANYBODY have an accurate count of the units involved in the furball & their actual losses?

TiA

NM

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Nick:

Are you sure of the date? I have no 109 losses over Hungary on that date. Almost all German 109 units were in Normandy or on their way there. We do not have damaged records for 1944, of course, but with 14 claims it would seem some might have been valid 100% losses.

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

John:

I'm pretty darned sure that the engagement took place on June 14th; 14th FG escorting bombers attacking oil targets over Hungary; HOWEVER...IF no Axis aircraft were actually lost, I reckon it's understandable, given the fact that the US Squadron was rather heavily outnumbered & also suffered pretty sizable losses(the squadron had to assume a Lufbury formation to survive)-I'm sure they couldn't watch any 109s they were shooting at for too long...Any 14th FG experts out there?
Checked another site & apparently the squadron was 49th FS of the 14th FG; they were jumped by 30+ Me 109s of the 101st Fighter Group commanded by Cpt G. Horvath; they were joined by "70+" German Me109s & FW109s; The Hungarian suffered one loss(Lt. Kiraly KIA) & two 109s damaged; don't know a thing about the Germans-They MIGHT have been elements of JG3 and/or JG 300(sturm units were used against the 15th AF at this time?)...but I am not sure.

TiA

NM

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Tony Woods files reveal only one German claim for P 38 that day over Hungary

14.06.44 Ltn. Ernst-Dieter Grumme: 22 4./JG 302 P-38 £ HQ-9-HR-7: 4.500 m. [N. Plattensee] 11.20-25 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: ASM

Jan

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

The P-38s were claimed by a Hungarian unit flying Me-109s

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Book : Jagdgeschwader 301/302 by Willi Reschke page 262:
Lt. Ernst Grumme 4./JG 302 KIA 44-07-14 Budäors Hungaria.

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Hmmmm....Not JG300 but JG302...well I was close; any other losses by LW on the day in question?
Thx

NM

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Do not confuse the dates: Grumme was shot down a month later, on 14 July, not on 14 June (but by the 14th FG). His one was the only German claim, there were 6 kills confirmed to the Hungarians. 5 Lightnings were lost and two others suffered serious damages. On the 49th FS side, they got 15 confirmed kills on that day (heavy overclaim). Two of their pilots became aces on the sortie, Jack Lenox (he is still with us) and Louis Benne (who led the squadron and who was shot down and become POW, deceased in 1978).

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Csaba: Yes...THOSE dates being exactly a month apart 'threw me' for moment; thanks for the feedback; RE: The actual Axis losses: so then the Hungarians lost one shot down & two damaged(forced landed) & the Germans are as yet undetermined? Again given the odds & circumstances of this dogfight the overclaiming was understandable.

nm

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Nick,

One Hungarian Messer crashed and one belly landed due to combat damage. One German aircraft also was shot down. The number of Axis planes was not so high, but there are always enough cause for the overclaim in such furious dogfights.

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

I guess it was high enough: 32 Hungarians Me; not sure how many LW fighters(some sources said 70++)--what LW units were involved--Numbers & the Gruppen if you have it; IF my memory is still functioning the 49th only numbered 12;

thx

nickm

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

70+ Luftwaffe planes - that was a fairy tale. Only one Luftwaffe Staffel engaged the 49th and only in the very last phase of the dogfight (the 4./JG 302, the Höhenstaffel). 30 Hungarian vs 15 US planes, 2 vs 1 rate, nothing special, or extremely rare, since the rates were much higher in the opposite side - 200-300 US fighters vs 50-80 German Hungarian fighters, but generally much-much less defenders. Sometimes 15-20 Hungarians vs 200 escort fighters (over 10 vs 1) AND they got a strict order to avoid the fighters, engage only the bombers, so impossible to compare it in any way.

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Of course...I'm sure it was stressful enough to be outnumbered 2-3 to 1(depending when 4/JG302 l got involved), far from home & slightly outclassed, performance wise...

NM

Re: A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...
 

Hello’

I would like to enclose one page from my Grandfather’s loogbook,
Kalman Garai was a pilot in the 5/1 Hungarian Night Fighter Unit. This day 14 of June 1944, he flew by Focke Wulf 58 Weihe. His radio-gunner was György Garzó.
This week the unit had training days, without any combat mission.

The unit had few (2-3pc.) Focke Wulf 58 all were painted grey colour.

Kind regards,

GaraiB