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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Ulf Balkes KG100 book page 266 has crew of Ltn Helmut Ridder in Do217 E-5 6N+KN of 5/KG100 w.n. 5630 missing on 16-9-1943 with target Salerno. Ff Ltn Ridder missing, B Uffz Rudolf Goschl ( umlaut over o) missing, Bf Uffz Rolf Oeser missing and Bm Ogef. Hans Kein POW.
Looks like the target may have been HMS Valiant and the Dornier would have carried a PC 1400 X. According to the 'K' interrogation report the aircraft started from Istres area at 2130 hrs but failed to find its target, the bomb was jettisioned, and while flying north at a height of 5000 feet Dornier was shot down from behind by a Beaufighter. However the location of the crash is given as in the sea 50 miles West of Naples at 0130 hrs. perhaps it made it back to land. There are further losses in the Salerno area on the 17th W.N 4575 and 5609 with crews rescued and on 17/18th w.n.5616 and 5626 missing. If any of these w.n's are found in your recovered pieces it would give a definite identity. Regards Brian Bines |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
A Do 217 E-5, such as represented by 6N+KN, was not equipped to carry the PC 1400X. Only the Do 217 K-2 and K-3 (at that time) had the necessary wing design and placement of the ETC 2000 bomb rack. On the Do 217 E-5 the bomb racks were outboard of the engines, perhaps to accomodate the wings of the Hs 293. On the Do 217 K-2 and K-3 the bomb racks were inboard of the engines, which was better for lateral stability.
Also, the wings of the K-2 and K-3 had been lengthened considerably to allow the aircraft to reach the altitudes necessary for effective use of the PC 1400X. The Do 217 E-5 could not reach those altitudes. The nose design was also significantly altered and the aircraft do look quite different. 6N+KN would have been equipped with the Hs 293. A separate mission was flown by III./KG 100 that same day with the PC 1400X. This is the mission that almost destroyed HMS Warspite and slightly damaged HMS Valiant. It appears that none of those aircraft were lost. I suspect we have found the wreckage of 6N+KN. Thanks for the photos!! MB |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Looking on the Luft. QM's list there is another possibilty on 15/16th Do217E-5 6N+HP wn 5552 was reported missing from the Salerno area. The Ff Ltn Horst Preisser, B Uffz Georg Hammerl and Bf Ogef Gunter (umlaut over u) are shown as missing but later shown as returned unwounded. The Bs Uffz Norbert Marek is shown as missing but according to the KG100 book following baling out he was captured,
Hope you solve the identity of this one, Brian Bines |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
This was the attack that led to the strike on SS James W. Marshall, with 63 killed.
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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
oF the crew of the KN one has been forced prisoner, location of the crash is seated 80 km west. Napoli, see AIR40-2414, it's interessant to note that they started with just one bomb...
56.. series is in the range of the E-5 type |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Good night to all!
May I ask one question: Do you have any information about the crew + Squadron + aicraft ( I read it was a Beaufighter ) which claimed the Dornier Do 217? Was it from 600 Squadron; or 89 Squadron? Thanks if you could point me the victor of this Do 217... Adriano |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
There is another Do217K-2 lost with w.n. 4577, two crewmen were missing and two returned wounded but the date of this is the 13th. Sept. Is the number definitely 1577 ?
I believe II/KG100 were based at Istres and III/100 at Istres but also using Foggia in Sept 1943 but this is not definite. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
It is clear that aircraft from II./KG 100 and III./KG 100 were operating from Foggia during the missions over Salerno. In fact, some never left. According to contemporary British intelligence reports, seven Do 217 K-2 aircraft of III./KG 100 were left behind: 6N+BW(Wk.Nr. 4550), 6N+KR (Wk.Nr. 4560), 6N+HT (Wk.Nr. 4517) and an aircraft with uncertain markings (Wk.Nr. 4564), 6N+BT (Wk.Nr. 4535), 6N+RT (Wk.Nr. 4571), and 6N+CT (Wk.Nr. 4557). In addition, two Do 217 E-5 aircraft were abandoned: 6N+KP (Wk.Nr. unknown) and 6N+GP (Wk.Nr. 5615). Interesting, none of these aircraft are even mentioned in Balke’s appendix on KG 100 aircraft losses. They are probably all victims of the air raid on Foggia on 19 September, or perhaps one of two earlier raids.
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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Istres is in Italy? Or France? I not know. Thanks. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Istres is N/W of Marseille. The details of the loss on 13th. Sept are Do217K-2 ZY+MA 4577 of III/KG100 Ff Oblt. Erwin Burghoff, B Uffz. Hans Bastian, Bf Fw.Leinhard Handwerker, Bs Ogef. Erwin Mutschler . They are all shown as missing in the Luft. QM's returns dated 26th Sept, admendments of report of 8th.Oct. then show the Ff and B as returned wounded and the Bf and Bs as 'gefallen'.
If the burial details of the two dead crewmen are known and are near the crash site it might help indentify whether this loss is a possibility for the aircraft you are looking for. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Here is other fragments we find in our second trip. Some idea about parts? Thanks.
1 http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2...magine001t.jpg 2 Bullet's hole http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9132/immagine002.jpg 3 http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/778...gine003xjm.jpg 4 Diameter 16 e 18 cm http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/489...gine004roi.jpg 5 http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/378...gine005bbh.jpg 6 http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3792/immagine006o.jpg 6a http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4545/immagine007t.jpg 7 Magnet 3x3 cm http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6496/immagine014m.jpg 8 NW 20 ARGUS http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2939/immagine008u.jpg 9 39.831-0172A CI__ON 3115.4 1384 http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5...magine009n.jpg 10 Franz Lange, Berlin http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4978/immagine010p.jpg 10a 126-621A Fl32958 http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/966...gine011cgn.jpg 13 P http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2...gine012zoj.jpg 14 1577? http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3...magine013y.jpg |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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do you know if Do217 4577 have a BMW engine No: 9 801 832 858 ... We today find a label with this number. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
The label is prefixed "9" to denote engine parts. The next number, "801", is the engine type - BMW 801. The rest of the numbers appear to just be part numbers/stores reference numbers.
Included in your photo of parts recovered there is what looks like one of the throttle levers. Also, part of one of the elevator mass-balance weights. (This is the curved steel part painted green with part number R8 -217 358. I expect it is quite heavy!) |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Hello Gentleman,
maybe a long shot but... In his book "41 Sekunden bis zum Einschlag" the former III./KG 100 Pilot Klaus Deumling mentions that his Staffelkapitän (7. Staffel) Lt. Michelis was missing since a mission to Salerno and Nettuno on the 16th of September. The 7./KG 100 flew Do 217 K with Fritz X. So far so good, but ... In Ulf Balkes Geschwaderkronik, already mentioned here, we find this loss on the 19th of September. The same date is mentioned here: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...9.KG100+FOGGIA But nowhere are details to be found regarding subtype or Werknummer of the flown Do 217. So what is right and what wrong ?? Herr Deumling wrote his book in 2008 so he hopefully is still alive and well. You maybe can contact him via the Aviationmuseum "Luftfahrt Museum Hannover-Laatzen". He frequently worked there voluntarylie. I think he still has his logbooks and other dokuments. By the way; what makes You shure it was the 16.09.43 "Your" plane came down ?? Hopefully this gets You a little bit further. Schoene Gruesze Norbert |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
We are returned to crash site of DO217.
Panoramic view http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1252/dscn4367z.th.jpg Gerardo and Daniele. On the back moun Pizzo S. Michele 1565 meters http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9763/dscn4370pe.th.jpg A welcome meet http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/893/dscn4365ai.th.jpg We find a lot of fragments (about 80 kg). I'm cleaning them. Now I post these: Part of engine BMW 801 http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2405/dvc07368.th.jpg 33570 9-801-300-305.23 N.Z. http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4207/dvc07369.th.jpg Elettric part http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5238/dvc07370.th.jpg 2 FL50971-22 3 http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1817/dvc07371.th.jpg Label BMW Zeichng. Nr. 9 801 832 858 -- Hersteller: BMW Werk 4 Lfd. Nr. der Hersettelr 2 1 --- http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4660/dvc07372.th.jpg Label BOSCH EM/S 75/75/3 Nennstrom: 75A Prufspannung: 500V= Gerat Nr. 19-8201C-1 Anforderz _____ Werk Nr. 423502 http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2766/dvc07373.th.jpg Label BOSCH KM/RC 25/24 ARL4 Syst24V N25W U/min3500 J2,7A BetrlebsartDB Gew1.18kg http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4904/dvc07374.th.jpg Some idea about parts? Thanks. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Thanks. I'm writing to museum. I'm not sure about date. I simply read it on the book gave us the information about this crash site. It is a 1946 book. Again thanks. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Yes, the part you quoted is very heavy and we must take it on from to 1400 meters to valley......:( The same happen yesterday: We find about 80 kg of fragments and in 3 take them on to the valley. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Sorry but I do not have any information on the engine numbers. Good luck with getting the parts down into the valley,
Regards Brian Bines |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Here are other fragments. Some idea????
1 http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/532...ine048n.th.jpg 2 http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2...ne022zf.th.jpg 3 http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/172...ne024hm.th.jpg 4 NW25 ARGUS http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5...ne025xt.th.jpg 5 http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/898...ne026ve.th.jpg 6 http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1...ine027b.th.jpg 7 http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2...ne028vq.th.jpg 8 http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/306...ine029d.th.jpg 9 http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/284...ne030wr.th.jpg 10 http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4...ine031n.th.jpg 11 16 2 MIN 26515 http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/405...ine032u.th.jpg 12 http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8...ine033o.th.jpg 13 http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8...ine034l.th.jpg 14 9-801 832-623.24 375 4 http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/302...ne035vj.th.jpg 15 93B 31-01 http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8...ine036p.th.jpg 16 9.801.834-628.24 http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6...ine037o.th.jpg 17 http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/607...ine039w.th.jpg 18 149 http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1...ine040a.th.jpg 19 126-857-005 LIST FL 32110-8 http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1...ine041u.th.jpg 19a Instrumentenstecker http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2815/fl321108.th.gif 20 DOM 9.801.832.708.13 d su. http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1...ine042v.th.jpg 21 Flap? http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6...ine043w.th.jpg 22 Parts of engine block http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8...ine044d.th.jpg 23 Parts of engine block http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5...ine045h.th.jpg 24 Parts of engine block http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/461...ine046r.th.jpg 25 30 MIN 2659 http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3...ine047y.th.jpg |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Hi Salerno 1943,
my name is Lino (DB601E) and i'm currently doing some research about the missions of KG100, KG26 and KG77 starting from Istres. For the given Date i have also the GQM Info about the AC: 16.09.1943 > II./KG 100 > Feindflug > Salerno > Ursache unbekannt Dornier Do 217 E5 > WNr. 5630 (6N KN) > Bruch 100%. I'm currently in contact with Mr. Deumling, if you should have specific question, send a PM to me. Greetings Lino |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Hi Salerno 1943,
the KTB of Istres airport is given follwing information on 16.09.1943: 5 Do217 Start 20:15 Landing 02:05 - 03:10 No Info about losses this day in the KTB For the 15th we have 8 Do217 Start 22:16-22:30 Landing 04:48 - 05:48 2 AC did not return from mission For the 17th we have 8 Do217 Start 21:00-21:14 Landing 03:21 - 03:51 3 AC did not return from mission So i would think about one of the AC mentioned in the section for 15th could be yours. It is always a problem with the given date in KTB and loss records for night missions and like in this case, if also other bases may have been used. Greetings Lino |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Many thanks. I hope with your help to identify aircraft. I'm answering in MP.
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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Hi,
the closest Werknummer i have for your picture is also the WNr. 4577. But according to the grave information given for the 2 dead crewmembers it seemed to me, that this AC crashed in the sea. is the crash site far from the shore? Greetings Lino |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Thanks Lino. The crash site is in mountains between Salerno and Avellino, about 10\15 km from the sea. Like you can see the first number appear to be a 1 and not a 4. Perhaps it is a old werk number then modified in 4577? Do you have photos of werk numbers on Do217? You have measure of werk numbers? So I can compare if numbers we find are werk number or some other. Thanks again. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Hi Matteo,
i just found 2 pictures showing a Do217 with Werknummer shown. But the numbers are too small to read. The size is hard to estimate, I would say maybe 15-25 cm height. Maybe too large for the number on your pictures. So perhaps an alternative solution: The Werknummer was also sometimes painted on equipment parts like ammunition box. See picture about number on Ju87 Ammo box. The size would fit very well: Height about 5 cm. Greetings Lino |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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I measure the number we find. It'is high 5 cm. The fragment is alluminium and appear to be part of fuselage. Thanks again. |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
Today we meet some people that confirmed that this DO217 was shot down from a allied fighter in afternoon of 16 sept 1943 after bombed ships in Salerno's Bay. Two of crew bailed out before of crash. One airman was find on the mountain where aircraft crashed and buried on the mountain. Someone can help us to identifi this aircraft? Thanks.
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5422/ocz1.jpg http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2033/xlbb.jpg http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/109/6khg.jpg http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5356/ql4n.jpg http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3918/69h9.jpg http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6240/szp9.jpg http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5949/9iyy.jpg http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3071/3t3q.jpg http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/3416/j84i.jpg http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3305/ffnv.jpg |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
I still think this must be 6N+KN from 5./KG 100. Balke reports it lost (for reasons unknown) after a daytime attack at Salerno on 16 September.
By the way, be careful about interpreting the Istres flight dates since the aircraft would typically fly from Istres to Foggia and then stage the attack out of Foggia. So the date of departure from Istres might not match the date of attack. MB |
Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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Re: Dornier 217 crashed in Salerno 16 sept. 1943
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What in the world happened to this post! :D |
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