New Ju88 wreck found
 

Someone forwarded me these photos. This Ju88 was found last month in Russia. No other information...but quite nice considering!


http://www.me-109.com/untitled2.bmp


http://www.me-109.com/untitled3.bmp


http://www.me-109.com/untitled.bmp

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Looks like to hv crashed one month ago...

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Russia is for sure gold mine for aero archeology :)

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Wow!

Fantastic condition of the engine block and tail section. Remarkable how these aircraft keep turning up.

Keep the photos coming if possible.

Cheers

Jeremy

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Miam Miam !

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

No other information on this then ? Like no details on crash site/location ? or engine/werke Nr ? After 60 years in some remote Russian forest, I would expect to see more weathering & some corrosion - particularly on the smaller metal parts & aluminium. Sorry, but I smell a rat.. Wouldn't happen that someone is having a laugh now would it ? Yup, that's exactly what I mean - looks like this could be a hoax to me. Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong.

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Sorry, but I smell a rat..


Could be , but the maskirowka is pretty well made , nothing missing even the 2 birches are there

Remi

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Remi - you're absolutely correct in what you're saying in your quote above. It does look as though it crashed just last month. Therin lies the problem. Take a really good look at that engine.. I have been to many crash sites & seen the remains of quite a few Jumo engines. I'm telling you - this one ain't been sat out in the open for 60 years - or anywhere near that long..

In particular - look closely at the brightmetal of the camshafts - exposed to ice snow & rain for decades - these would certainly be badly corroded by now.

....it's a good hoax though. Made me chuckle :0) atb richard.

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

HI guys,

Not sure if that was the location it was found in. One of the trees is there to only hold up the tail, so I would not come to any conclusions due to the trees.

In these pics, everything has been cleaned already. And certainly it is an original tail section and engine.

As the info was sparse, it could have been simply a Ju88 tail, wheel, and radio items. I'll try to get more info and pics...

Paul Allen's Fw190 was found in Russia 15 years ago, and it had a LOT of original paint.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NUwF2FRQmIU...</param><param

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Yes, it did. I'll be very happy to eat my own hat if you manage to provide some more evidence ! atb richard

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...6&pictureid=66

In my humble experience - this is what Ju88 engines usually look like after being dug up/or prolonged exposure to weather. (not my photo btw - this was taken in Norway).

Anyway - if I'm wrong about the one languishing in Russia, then I'll apologise unreservedly. Assuming the wreckage does turn out to be genuine (and not a hoax) - then it really needs to be recovered..

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

I just retired as an Archaeologist in Oregon state. I never failed to be amazed at the condition of some objects; 100+ year old metal objects especially. Some would be nothing but chunks of rust, while others look like they could be used with a little clean up. There are many factors to preservation.
To me, it looks quite original.

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Oxby...

I have had MANY Me109 wrecks, wreck parts, and engines in my posession, all in various states. I can tell you 100% that the conditions in Russia are much different than in Wales and other parts of Western Europe. And certainly these parts were not in the condition of the pics you sent.

The Ju88 clearly was not dug... :)

I was told that is how it was found in the forest. To me, it seems more like a junk pile of parts from a Ju88.

I recently saw the top turret to a Panzer II in someone's back yard in Russia...all with original paint...and many other things just "sitting" in Russia. So who knows...maybe some farmer had all the parts sitting around a decided to finally dump the lot many years ago.

Someone I know has a Ju88 tail section that was removed from a wreck in Norway. It still has 90% original paint...and this is after being outside for decades.

This Ju88 is not recorded anywhere. It is clear from the pics that it is 100% original...so in ID needs to be established...if not a hoax :)

more info will follow ;)

Mike

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Hi Mike - Can't disagree with any of what you're saying in above post. I've no difficulty in acknowledging some wrecks turn up in various states of preservation. I will also agree your pictures feature parts of a Ju88, and they appear to be 100% original. Some wrecks as you say - are in remarkable condition even after such a long period. You may recall the USAAF P47 'Jug' recovered from the depths of Lake Constance a couple of years ago. The condition was amazing - with original paint still visible under the muck, and no aluminium corrosion whatsoever. Apparently this was down to immersion in fresh water at considerable depth with consequent low water temperature & v low levels of oxygen.. anyway I digress slightly.

Yes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're correct - that some farmer perhaps had stored these Ju88 parts for some years in a barn or somewhere before finally dumping them. They do look like the sort of collection which might be more easily transported. But you have to admit this find does beg a lot of speculative questions. Aside of identity details I mean. Where is the rest of the fuselage & wings for example ? And is this the original crash site ? (or just where the collection was dumped ?) As for the engine, well there is no denying she is a beauty - occurs to me - she might even be good enough to restore to running condition. If that's the case - I'll quite happily volunteer to do the engineering works. chuckle.

..but... to imagine these things have been out in the open all that time? Hmm, that beggars belief. But.. ok ok - its not impossible. If indeed that does turn out to be the case - well, then it is a truly remarkable find. I'd like very much to know more. Mike - I wish you the best of luck in your quest to get more details. Incidently - there is no doubt cast over your integrity here whatsoever - I'm just genuinely interested in finding out more as to how those parts got there, and their history. I'm sure there are others who are also following your thread with great interest.

atb richard

Ps A friend of my Dad's ('Moose' Fumerton) kept a rudder from a Ju88 as a war souvenir - he shot it down himself over the western desert in 1942. Apparently he kept it in the loft for years before donating it (and his medals) to a museum in Ottawa, Canada. But for the dust - you'd think that thing was brand new.

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Guys

No reason at all that this is not an original find, I have photos from a similar, and actually better preserved wreck that was discovered in a wood a few years back in Karelia (wk nr etc still visible), it was also a tail section and wings-engines, but the front was destroyed. Protection comes from the trees growing around the wreck crash site and the canopy that grows above (witness the Fw 190). It would be nice to see further shots of the remains of the front fuselage-if there is any.......

regards
Dave

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

I am surprised we are even discussing this as a possible hoax!

Of course it isn't.

I have been recovering wrecks like this for over thirty years. Why a hoax?

I would suggest, though, that the engine has been removed to another location and given some careful attention. The grassy background and the grey blanket cover give the game away.

I would suggest that the bright shiny bits have been exposed after the mag alloy corosion that would have been the rocker box covers and gear housing (there is no trace of this in the engine pic) has been removed. This is generally a white crystaline mass, and the metalwork beneath is often pristine - as here.

If its a hoax I will eat MY hat!

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Oxby comes from Wales. Everything is old and corroded there, including the sheep. :D

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Oxby, I'm on your side. If these photos are not "posed" or a PhotoShop creation, then why is there no evidence of any vegetation growing up through those piles of metal in the first two photos? After 60+ years, there would be trees, shrubs and weeds sprouting and growing right up through the piles. That stuff was found elsewhere, dug up and cleaned, and then piled where it is before being photographed. The only mystery is the intention of those who did so. Is it an attempt to deceive or was it simply an expedient to pile their findings temporarily in an untidy pile before being photographed?

I'm no mineralologist, agronomist or geomorphologist, but I think I have read that certain layers of permafrost have unusual preservative qualities and metal objects buried within these layers show little evidence of corrosion, even after decades. Could this be an aircraft that came down somewhere south of Murmansk? There's plenty of permafrost up there.

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Hi
A they say on the flypast forum...

' will it be at legends '


I agree with Andy.

As to corosion etc, I pulled an access panel out of a hole on the moors some years back it was mint, due to it having sat in fuel/oil for about 50 years, even had the chalk marks still on the inside of it and there was more bits of that quality.

it was rumoured there was a sunken american half track nearby..part of the recovery op..

cheers
Jerry

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Nice photos.

I've no reason to think these are not real. The paint has been protected by the forest and cold weather.

Having seen the state of preservation of the Fw190A, Fw189, Me110E, P40C from the tundra - this looks as good. Only magnesium and water do not mix and will cuase these to corrode/disappear - hence no cam covers. Aluminium is generally fine unless moisture has a place to become trapped and evaporates/condenses due to cold/hot weather.

Shame the W.Nr on the fin (touch of white) is not readable otherwise we could work out its loss.

Pic of the P40K in the tundra - Now Ron Fagen's and Oshkosh winner!

regards

Mark

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Hi Guys,

I've seen better preserved Jumo 211 engines in the Norwegian mountains. When we unscrewed the top lid on one engine there came a lot of engine oil that looked like new, no corrosion inside etc. I've also seen large wing sections with intact paint when we turned them around.

/Mike

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Yup!

Clearly, this wreck is legit...

Sadly, no other photos, but clearly it is not a photoshop creation.

My Me109 which was recoevered from Russia (sold it since) still had a lot of the paint on the bottom of the wings...

Mike

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Larry

The wreckage has clearly been gathered together and put into one location for photographic purposes. The use of a silver birch sapling to prop up the tail is evidence of this. The engine, too, is at another location it would seem. Presumably recovered, partially cleaned/restored and covered over with a protective grey blanket. (I suspect the engine, when discovered, had not been thoughtfully covered over with a horse blanket by some itinerant Cossack!!!)

I have seen dozens of such photos of "recently discovered" wrecks in the former USSR (and elsewhere) that are of this genre.

I see nothing suspicious in these photos at all. Mind you, whoever has found this wreck - or knows where it is - will probably want a good few roubles to show and tell. Then more roubles to "buy" it, followed by even more roubles to actually get it out of whatever country it is in.

Having just returned from a recovery operation in Ukraine I am all too familiar with how these things work!

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

If it was, then the artist would be in demand from publishers!

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

For a very atmospheric, but I gather, quite spurious wreck (an apparently complete 109e belly landed in (now) deciduous woodland), see http://www.dekalogue.com/images/decommissioned.jpg


Best


ChrisG

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

hello,
I have to agree with Mr Olrog,
I have been a few years ago to Norway on expedition and have removed the carter of a jumo 211 , the oil was still there and it looks like the engine was putted there yesterday. even parts still laying with their color on.
the only thing was that fuselage parts in direct sun the color was less and faded.
those who are giving doubts to the reality of those pictures i have to asume they never did or visited wrecks.
Its also depending like a reader is telling the cercomstanses were its located .
if you would find it high in the mountains or high altitude it will be less coroded than close to the sea where salty winds will give a negative influence to the alu.
anyway , I know what i saw that time ....
kind reg
phil

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Andy Saunders wrote in part:

Thanks, Andy. That's more or less what I thought was the most likely scenario on this. Dug up nearby, cleaned, piled and photographed. As everyone else has said, the preservation is remarkable. Long live permafrost!

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Not even sure if it has been 'gathered together'. Seems the engine has been removed and stored/cleaned and protected.

The tail, electronics and main wheel are all in the forest. The pole has been use to push and support the fin so the swastika is visible.

By the condition of the tail and parts from the interior I would expect there not to be too much substantial remaining.

Have asked a few contacts on whether anything more is known about this one.

regards

Mark

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

is it me or is that engine definately not a jumo 211?

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

The photos all came to me in one lot...just assumed it was Jumo211 and part of the wreck. it was found at the same spot. Of course after looking closer, I would agree... :)

Mike

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Hi
Flypast thread suggests hispano suiza engine.
cheers
Jerry

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

i think its a Wright "Tempest" E-4 water-cooled engine after looking closer..
new on the website here.. and hi there chrille :) hehe

but the tail is wat i think a 100% correct new find.. allthough this engine is something else..first i dident look to close as i thought it was a jumo but after looking more closely i started to wonder..
and to me it looks like this engine..

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

i assume you delivered this part to the norwegian armed forces museum as its strictly forbidden to steal parts from wrecks in Norway, and they belong to the norwegian armed forces museum. If not you are actually confirming a theft here

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

and just to show..this is the camshaft from a Jumo 211 that has been 60 years in the mountain..the badely corroded magnesium top has been removed and the oil has been wiped off.. looks like brand new. but it all depends on how its been laying and how its been preserved
this Jumo 211 is in the storage at Gardermoen Aircraft collection and are used as a spare engine for the restoration of the Jumo 211 engines for the Ju 88 A1 ( ofcourse the engine pictured in this thread is NOT a Jumo 211 ( fooled me for a few minutes there as one got caried away with the other pictures of the 88 ) but still..the fact that parts can be found in these conditions even after 60+ years in the open

best regards
Guttorm Fjeldstad
Project leader on restoration of Ju 88 A1 werknumber 0119

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Dpeends on the year...a lot of stuff came out of Norway before the government had any interest...

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

it seems in the post that it was kinda recent ! and the parts has belonged to the norwegian Gov. since 1945 so its always been illegal..but its only on the last years that they have done anything with it and cared about it ( so you are partely right on that )..and its also been many legal trips to wrecksites so if he took part in any of those its 100% ok. and after a mail i got from another person in here it seems it was one of those fieldtrips he took part in but then that is something he should have written ! :)

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Hi all

Had the W.Nr confirmed from one contact. It is generally old news - parts were offered for sale a few years ago. W.Nr was 2074.

Andreas was kind enough to send a link to the loss.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=107189

Crew survived. KG30. I am assuming it was a belly landing. All crew unhurt and returned OK.

Believe a lot of wrecks in Russia were blown up in the years between the end of the GPW and 1970/80's?

Hope this help. Thanks again to Andreas.

Mark

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Mark

If that is 2074 a lot more of the aircraft was extant and in good condition, wings and undercarriage included, but no forward fuselage.

Dave

Re: New Ju88 wreck found
 

Hi,

4D+GP was lost on weather recon sortie due to engine failure and the entire crew bailed out. The plane crashed by Kinstinki some 200 SE of Kemi. In the evening of this day 18 Ju 88 of II./KG30 were bombing Archangielsk.

Regards

Robert