Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

This sold on eBay recently. The owner "apparently" got it from a vet.

After he got it, he cut it in half so he could sell 2 pieces and make more money.

Nothing about this relic seems German.

- The swastika is sloppy with oversprayed areas (even some areas do not line up correctly). Also, the swastika is painted in 2 halves. So a "half" template was used. You can see the overlap in the 3rd photo

- the interior paint is dark GREEN (which was never used as a primer by the Luftwaffe). And certainly this is not an oxidized RLM02.

- no ink stamps on the aluminum

- strange "stamped" number on the inside (which again I have never seen before.


Seller advertised it as a Ju88 tail (which it clearly is not)...then changed it to Fw190...again wrong...and not Ju87 as far as I can tell.

Does anyone agree with me that this is a forgery? Something someone cut from a US or RAF plane, and then painted the swastika?


http://www.me-109.com/TAIL97.jpg

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I would say a fake.

For all of the reasons you state!

It certainly is not Junkers 87, either, just to rule that out, as I have a genuine one on my office wall.

There is a lot of money in swastika panels and there are many forgeries out there. I have seen some quite good ones, but they always fall down for being on entirely spurious metal panels. Generally, the rivet lines and panel joints don't match any known German aircraft and the reverse (usually) reveals the truth that this is from a non-German aircraft. I have even seen bits of Cessna 172's used in the past! The type of paint and paint running through tears and rivet holes into the reverse are obvious clues on some.

Sorry, but this 'aint the real deal.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Oh yes! I would say a fake for sure. I know of one Ebayer who is passing off "relics" with false details.

How much did this go for on Ebay

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

there are indeed fakes but remember that the germans have used captured american planes and they painted the german cross on for recognition. the opposite was also done by the usaaf.
maybe you have to search if those numbers found inside have any sence in american parts numbers ?

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Call me odd-man out! Having owned six Luftwaffe real-deal tail sections representing three a/c types (I'm "down" to four panels at present), and having seen/examined countless others (both cloth and metal, some real and some believed/obviously fake) over many years, in my judgement it's probably OK. Nothing I can see gives 100% proof otherwise. And, no, I do not have any connection to this item or its seller. Looks like a rather typical, composite fabricated, hastily painted, late war example to me - inside and outside. Let the thread continue, I'm sitting down . . .

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Hi Steve,

But...very few aircraft flew with that style of swastika. And NO German aicraft had a dark green interior, NOR had swastikas painted in 2 halves. They did have templates, but they were full templates, not a "half" swastika.

Late-war aircraft, did not have interior primer as of 1943 (date I am not 100%). It was left as bare aluminum to speed production time. All late Me109, fw190, me262, etc. were not painted. And certainly not in a Dark Green. RLM02 was a light grey...so even if this had oxidized due to age, it certainly would not have turned to a very dark green.

One of the other problems is the seller lied about where he got it from. I just spoke to someone who was interested in this panel last year, when it was owned by someone else. This "someone else" was NOT a vet as the new owner is claiming. it was an other dealer.

So...made up story of who he got it from does not look good. Also, if this was 100% original...why cut the thing in half? surely anyone who buys a 100% original tail section, with vet history, is not going to chop it in half.

I suspect he knew it was fake...and wanting to get his money back, chopped it into 2 pieces.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Steve

I'm with Harrison987 on this one. I don't much like those cheese-head rivets, either. They don't look too Germanic to me. And what type COULD this be from? It must be mighty obscure (and rare!) because that rivet/panel line fits nothing I can find. The interior grey/green does not look to be the usual RLM Grey to me, but does look very American.

I wouldn't give you $10 for it, personally.

I am confused a little, though. In the first image(s) it seems to be both sides of the fin with port and starboard skins still in place. In the other images it seems to be just one side with the ribs cut down the middle and just one skin. Or is it just me? Am I missing something here???

I'd like to be shown wrong on my views, though, Steve!

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

an idea:
if you compare the inner green colors to american "inner greens "
would it make any sence that the swawtika was painted on a american plane taken by the germans like it happened during war?
this is only a sugestion coz as all of you are saying (and i agree) that the inner colors aren't german.....
maybe we have to think in the opposite direction ?

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I saw that in the views too. I think we are seeing the tail before and after it was sectioned; a careful look will show (when intact) both sides with differences.

I didn't reply to prove anyone wrong (in fact, Mike's a friend), just to offer my own opinion. I offered that it's "probably OK" - my opinion - nothing more, nothing less. Given only these these photos (forget dealer tall tails), I am sill open-minded. Actually, I could care less if it's real or not. No problem.

It's said, one should buy the item, not the story; opinions are free and usually worth as much.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Well said, Steve!

Sorry. Didn't mean to come across in any kind of strident way but having re-read my post I'm sorry if it seemed rather opinionated.

Having re-read Mike's post I now realise that he said it was sectioned into two halves. For me, that pretty much convinces me its a fake. Surely, unless one was terminally stupid, one wouldn't cut something like this in half. Would one? Unless, I suppose, the vendor thought they could get two bites at the cherry by selling two swastika panels.

Anyway, for what its worth, its only my opinion its a fake but I do like the "buy the item, not the story" quote!

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I'm not yet convinced this is a fake either. Likewise, I disagree that no german aircraft had green interiors (at least partially). This panel was discussed awhile back on the Wehrmacht Awards forum. If I remember correctly, the seller was asking high dollar for it and it didn't sell....so he cut it in two and sold the pieces separately. Of course this didn't go over too well with many people on the forum. The seller's excuse was that two people wanted the item so he halfed it so each person would get a piece - Ha! $$$$ Anyway, if it is original, there has to be someone on this forum who can identify what type aircraft it came from

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Well...I looked at every German tail known, and nothing on this matches anything Luftwaffe.

So far no one has pointed out any features that prove it to be original...but lots of features it is fake.

One of the big give-aways is the 1/2 Swastika stencil and overlap...

Of course, one still has to eep an open mind.

If someone can make a list of the reasons why they think it is original, I am game :)

mike

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Here's the idiot (Brent Smith) who cut it in half. He explains in Post #9.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=tail+section

Regards,
Mike

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I have seen far better fakes, actually.

This has never been anywhere near Germany, probably, let alone a German fighter!

The vendor presumably knew it to be phoney and thus had no qualms in cutting it up and doubling his ill-gotten gains.

I feel sorry for the two people who were duped into parting with good money and think they have bought a treasure. They haven't.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

for those who are collecting,
i was informed that even REVI 16 ,fahrbeutel and kg 12 are compleetly made fake.
those beutels sold before 1000 euro's yet the fakes are offered on 5-600 on the market.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Not that it really matters (except to the two buyers), but if not period German, it would be interesting to find out what type of aircraft this actually came from.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I think I am correct in saying that KG12's are "re-manufactured" from Russian Mig control column tops. Those I have seen have been (obviously) re-painted, had fake data plates applied and if one looks down inside the tube where the pole attaches a milled out groove or slot will be seen. This has been filled and rubbed down smooth on the outer surface, but the give-away is the roughly filled slot when you look inside. There are lots of these around, so beware!

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Here's a look at a grip in a Mig 15 (NAS Pensacola exhibit). Clearly, the design was influenced by the WW2 German KG 12/13 series. First-blush similarity has allowed these grips, with relatively little, if any, alteration, to be passed off as German. Adding to the ruse, KG data plates and terminal covers have been reproduced, and period buttons and switches abound. Put them all together and you have a $2,000 "KG 12 or KG 13". Indeed - buyer's beware!

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Apart from the issue of cutting the piece in two, which was done in such a crude way that I suspect the seller to be either very naive (/stupid) or a fraud.

But back to the subject we can still look at the evidence as presented and look for examples:

1. Crude Swastika stencil
   Do we have any samples of such half stencils in the Luftwaffe?
   Was it a technique used by Luftwaffe painters?
   Would you expect a fraud to use a visible technique that was sure to raise questions?
2. Establishing the type
   Even if the material does't look German, based on primer, rivets and markings, that leaves a lot of room for foreign types operated by the Luftwaffe. If we can establish the type we've gone a long way to check the claim.
   The photos tell a lot about the construction and given time you might find a good match.
3. Are we missing something?
   We have a stamped number, does this mean anything to someone? What about the type set used, does it correspond to a German letter, if not can it be traced to another country?
   The exterior paint. Is it a good match for one of the RLM dark greens? Perhaps it can be traced to an Italian color?

Just some thoughts.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Ruy

You raise some good points!

1) Swastikas and markings were sometimes (if not often) somewhat "crude" and not as clean-cut or perfect as one might be led to believe from period photographs. I am not sure, per-se, that the crudity or otherwise of the marking helps us a good deal.

2) I accept a huge multitude of types were operated by the L/W including foreign types. However, as far as I can thus far tell this does not conform to any of the "standard" types operated.

3) The number should certainly be a clue. I have been through all my (international) indexes of known part numbers, factory stamps etc and found no match yet. It does not conform, either, to anything I can find on German types. The paint, rivets and construction just are not right for a German aircraft.

For me, this is just not "right" and years of colllecting, researching, buying, selling and handling items such as this tells me by instinct it is not the real article. I have had more than a few such panels through my hands - fake and genuine - and own three "real" ones. I would also like to smell it!! My bet is that it smells strongly of modern acrylic or oil based paints. Wartime German aircraft/paintwork do have a quite unique odour.

One possibility is that it is an old film prop, or from a film prop aeroplane, and the vendor may have genuinely believed it to be real.

However, the fact that it was latterly cut in two reinforces (for me) the belief that it is fake and the vendor knew full well that it was!

In the final analysis the buyer/owner of this item(m) must decide. For me, and without even seeing it, I know that I wouldn't touch it.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

about that.. in the museum at gardermoen where i work restoring a Ju 88 A1 ( werknumber 0119 ) we have taken several original stabs from other wrecks to use in the restoration prosess. it was quite a unusal sight when we drilled of the top skin one the stab and they are green inside. the pictures might show them a bit grey ( its dust ) but they are green as the leafs on the trees..and these has not seen sunlight since they were rivited together by Junkers company, and i have after that noticed that many skinns facing inside of german aircrafts are painted green ( some dark..some lighter ) the last stab we opened had pretty much the same colour as the above picture.. just make a i bit wet so the pigment show better and the pics i post here will get a lot greener. its not the same green as the tail shown in this thread ..but still its green

now if this is tail is real or not i will not get into as i havent seen it in real life ! but the green inside is 100% ok with me.

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I have also seen several examples of this green color on the interior of swastika's cut from Me-109 tails. Off topic question for Junkers88A1 - what was the cockpit width of the Ju-88?
Thanks

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

that depends on what area of the cockpik you wonder about as it narrows in the further front you go.. and i dont have the numbers here but its easily found out next time i am in the museum working on the A1 :)

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Just curious about the cockpit width at the pilot's seat position - thanks

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

1.20meters at shoulderhight at pilots position :)

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Interesting, that's a bit smaller than it looks (at least to me) in pictures - thank you

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

its really small. did measure it today when i was in the museum ! i measured it from the bottom of the forward canopyframe ( shoulderheight )

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

wow - awesome restoration!

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

thanks :)

its the whole story on my website

http://www.ju88.net/

its a lomg ongoing process but its slowely starting to look like something

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Hello Junkers 88A1.

I am in constant amazement at the superb restorations undertaken at Gardermoen and Bodo and have visited the latter twice. What you guys have done, and are doing, is awesome!

I understand what you say about the "green" colour and have seen this myself, too. However, I am of the view that this is in fact one of the RLM shades. I admit it does appear "greenish", but I don't think it is the same colour as on the interior of the swastika panel under discussion. That said, viewing these shades on a monitor is not a reliable basis, I suppose, for any definitive answer to be forthcoming. How you and I both view the colour will doubtless be different on our monitors - as it will be for everyone else. Perhaps the jury is still out on this aspect, although interior colour aside I remain convinced that this swastika panel is a fake.

One last thing, Junkers88A1. Slightly off topic, but were you involved in the He 111 restoration(s)? On a technical point I am curious to know what the collection of small round apperures is on the starboard side of the nose on the He. 111 just aft of the nose glazing. They appear in many photos of 1940 period He 111's and there has been some discussion here on another thread about this. They seem something to do with flare/signal cartridge stowage. But why? And how? And why are there this series of holes in the external skin - was this covered in fabric or something of the sort? I am just puzzled as to what this is. I am hoping that someone can tell me and put me out of my misery!! I just want to understand what it is/was and its purpose! Does the Gardermoen Heinkel have it?

Andy

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Hi Andy,

This was a wooden block perforated with holes that held the cartridges. On the inside was a metal cover, the outside was originally covered over with doped fabric/thick paper although some production photos show this being left off. If you find the original long thread you will find more explanation and illustrations. As you will note from the thread the holes were angled in such a way that if a cartridge went off the 'blast' would be deflected away from the aircraft - or at least that was the idea!

The Gardermoen aircraft will have had it although when I saw it the block was missing and the rectangular hole in the cockpit skin was the only evidence of it, couldn't say whether a block is now fitted or not.

Regards,

David

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

hi

as i mantioned above, i will not comment on the part if its real or fake because i have not seen it in real life. monitors does give a bad view and colours( but i can say one thing that does make me a bit puzeled ) the rivets are riveted from the outside and flattened on the back.. this is unusual on the german aircrafts i have seen. they usually have the round heads inside and flattened on the outside and then was grinded down to a smooth surface ) this the germans was experts with

now to the He 111. the small holes are for the flares ! and the outside is covered with fabric. in case of a fire the flarebox was jettisoned by pushing it out. its the same in the Ju 52 and all other bigger planes that the flarebox could be jettiosned !
allthough the Ju 52 and the Ju 88 has metalcovers on the outside and the boxses are springloaded so one just pull a handle and out goes the whole flareboxses !

i have done quite a lot on our He 111 as it was pretty fast and poorly restored so it has gotten a sexond restoration where this item was but back in place by me ( as it was missing and i managed to get hold on one from belgium )and during the planes repaint it also got the correct fabric cover on the outside ( one these pictures taken over different times one can see the box from the outside beeing white and red ( the middle part of it between the white and red was not yet painted when these pics was taken.. that is now very green ( lighter green that the fuselage..but the outer fabric is painted in the same fuselagepaint.. just realized that somehow that detail has been left out during my picturetaking over the years..hehe

the box is seen from the inside withe the leather Mg 15 sparepartkit mounted on the "door"
just behind it is the flares and one push and out the whole thing goes

attached also a picture of the flreboxses in the tail gunner compartment of the Ju 52- those are jettiosned by pulling a handle ( on top of the two tubes you see going down towards the flareholders

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

and thanks for the comments. we try oer best with what we got :)

the Ju 88 had a slightly better construction.. the falerboxses had a inner lids as well and did not make a gaping hole in the fusealega after jettiosn of flareboxes. and that would not give the fire more air to "breathe " in
the handle to jettiosn the Ju 88 flareboxes is just barely seen between the two partely open lids ( see small red part ) and when jettiosned the boxses will pop out on the side ( see the golden area on right side of fuselage..these pics are take some years ago so the parts look much better now

and the Ju 52..the early war years the Ju 52 used the twin barrel flaregun mounted in the back ( see picture ) and one can also see from the outside ( on the balkencross ) there is a flat area not corugated.. that is the flareboxses. and that area is jettisoned in case of fire ( this picture was take for another reason but does clearly show the flat area on the side of the fuselage )

welcome back anytime and let me know if you want to see the workshop if that was closed during your visit

i hope this maks thing clearer for you :)

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Hi,

Thanks for the excellent pictures! I can see that you have added a lot of extra detail/parts/accessories which were left off or not fitted after the original restoration. Great work that I'm sure many will appreciate - it would be nice to see the RAF museum example done to the same standard - and I'm not criticising the volunteers - more the lack of funds and marketing direction.

Regards,

David

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Hi, Junkers Ju88A1...

Just have to say... that He111 is a wonderful restoration job, and the Ju52 as well. I've never been to visit the museum, but you're seriously putting me in the mood for a holiday to Norway... ! :D

Really looking forward to seeing the Ju88 when restored. I've looked in on your websit a few times now, and again, wonderful work being done on that aircraft. Keep up the great work.

Regards...

Paul

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

thanks for the comments :) its lot of love put into the Ju 88, he 111 and Ju 52 :)
and they are really starting to get back to there former glory. i have this thing about details.. just love them. and the He 111 lacked most of the details on its former restoration ! so we made a second go at it. ( and it REALLY had to be repainted..as i hated that grey He 111..there never was such a grey He 111..and they used the grey primer as "how" it was ) i would love to see the He 111 and Ju 88 in england also been re-restored again and get all its details back.. but i know one of the problems is that the volenteers are not allowed to work highr that shoulderheighs and are not allowed into the aircrafts..so then ..who bothers to work at them. i know a guy ( a friend of mine who USED to work as a volenteer) who brought several missing parts to the Bf 110 and Ju 87 there..but he was not allowed into the aircrafts to put them in place.. so he took them with him back home and quit !
right now we are concentrating mostely on the Ju 88 but also the Ju 52. seatcovers are up next and leathercushions and covers to the cockpiseats. but its pretty much getting close to complete. and our Ju 52 is now the only Ju 52 in the world with all 4 Mg 15`s mounted and also with all the drums that went with it. but there is still some items missing on the bordfunkerposition ( we have them..but they are stored in trondheim in the Dora bunkers and its just a matter of time and logistics to get them back to the museum.. but they will be put in place ) and all the eletric systems are back up and running on the Ju 52.
the main problem with the He 111 is that it was restored and the details was left out..so its hard to put the details back in certain places unless one take apart the whole thing. but with the Ju 52 and the Ju 88 this is not a problem since this is incorperated from the beginning of the restoration

and again thanks for the comments :)

and i guess this thread went straight of the tracks.. lol

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

and since i am at it.. when we decided to repaint the He 111 we started claning it and to our big suprise it turned out that they had just painted the fuselage grey in the 70`s without stripping it..so every line was visible thru the grey paint.. so the cammo pattern is a 100% match on how it was. we just followed the original lines.and also the C on top of the fuselage ( will never be seen by anybody except me and a few others who work on it..and now you..) was cleary visible under the grey paint..also the C on the wings ( top ) but they were there there so its back in place ) hope you in here like what i have done with the planes. the decals ( yes they are decals) on the wheels are also back in place.. and the originals also used decals on the wheels that was overpainted with clear protective coat ) our decals are remade 100% macth from the originals ! ( we have one original wheel with all in place ) and the arrow is handpainted like the original.. but still a long way to go before i am pleased.

we are not 100% sure that it had the werknumber painted on the vertical but we decided to add it ! as most had it and it looks good :)

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

Fantastic job Junkers88A1. I've always wanted to go to Norway - now I really do!

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

thanks CCNCCN :) and welcome any time :)

Re: Fake Tail Section and Swastika?
 

I see from another forum where this issue cropped up that the buyer of this artefact (who apparently has both sides?) has been given a full refund by the vendor.

See here:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93003

See here also for a tale of some other fakery and e-bay profiteering:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89535