Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Please take this thread seriously. What I post is not a wind-up, and if you want proof, I will post a link to the thread on the other forum on which it has surfaced.

On another forum, an American has asserted that there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940. He refuses to accept that he is possibly incorrect, and says they then joined the US Air Force in 1941.

Can someone please prove or disprove this person's claim?

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Hello John,

And most of them were I expect from either 2nd generation German or Italian decent?

I remember reading this somewhere - please supply the link, thank you.

Alex

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Gentlemen,

The number quoted above relates to the RCAF. A large number of Americans crossed into Canada and enlisted in the RCAF. Not everyone became flight crews. Besides pilots and navigators, air gunners, radio operators, etc. there were others who became aero engine mechanics, airframe fitters, radio repair men, and others that occupied every conceivable trade available in the RCAF. Don't forget there were many Americans in the Canadian Army and Navy.

When the USA entered the war, a special US committee traveled across Canada visiting every RCAF Station to "recruit" or "conscript" Americans into the USAAF. Many Yanks applied for transfer, but the USAAF selected only those having training (pilots and navigators) or trades considered of high value. A very large number of American applicants were rejected and remained in the RCAF, whereas others, who refused to transfer, were stripped of their US citizenship.

I met one veteran in Winnipeg: born in Pennsylvania, he enlisted in the RCAF, stationed with 3 Squardon RAF; he shot down one Me109 and 14 V-1s flying Tempests. When he refused transfer to the USAAF, his US citizenship was revoked, and he remained a Canadian--the late George 'Lefty' Whitman.

I assisted a Canadian researcher with obtaining official US government files relating to this special US committee. I copied and sent him documents listing several thousand Americans in the RCAF, detailing names, rank, and serial numbers. The majority of these are ground-crew members who were rejected by the Americans for transfer to the USAAF.

The Canadian researcher concentrated on pilots and navigators, and documented some of their recollections in a series of books titled, "Immigrants of War" by Walter Fydenchuk. The current volume (No. 5) may be purchased from the Pima County Air Museum in Arizona.

Norman Malayney

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Alex, Norman,

Thanks for your replies. I am talking 1940 and the Battle of Britain period. Is the figure of 10,000 correct for the RAF (not the RCAF)?

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

The number is probably believable, if you don't distinguish between RAF and RCAF. The RAF and RCAF were, in many ways, closely connected at the time. Anyone signing up in the RCAF stood a very good chance of serving with an RAF unit, especially early in the war.

Google "Clayton Knight Committee" for more information. This was the officially sanctioned organization that recruited skilled Americans in America for both the RAF and RCAF, with under-the-table approval by the US, Canadian and UK governments. This organization was started before Canada entered the war in September 1939, to handle the huge numbers of Americans looking to join the RCAF or RAF even then. They had signed up over 8,000 by Pearl Harbour, mostly with prior aviation experience or training of some sort. To this number, add many more that crossed into Canada or the UK on their own and signed up there. Most of these had no prior aviation experience, and quite a few were rejects from the Clayton Knight operation. The Clayton Knight people usually supplied rejects with detailed information on how and where to enter Canada, and who to apply to once you got there.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

I'll make myself a little clearer.

In the RAF in 1940. In an operational status as either flying crew or ground crew, or pen pushers, whatever. That's all I'm trying to bottom out.

Not the RCAF at all. Forget the RCAF.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Up to 25% of the "flying crew or ground crew, or pen pushers or whatever" in the RAF at any time during the War were RCAF, or "Canadians" wearing RAF uniforms. Many of the Yanks in both the RAF and RCAF prior to Pearl Harbour would be listed as "Canadians", since that is where they signed up. Because of paperwork practices like this, it may not be possible to ever confirm or deny your number.

Bottom line: your total of 10,000 Americans is fairly believable, based on the few hard facts I am aware of. It is very believable if you include RCAF members serving with the RAF.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

No need to shout John. I thought you would be able to put this information into historical perspective. I will try to help you with this. I will use short sentences as well.

The Americans serving with the RAF in 1940 would show up in the records under various headings. American in the RAF, Canadian in the RAF, American in the RCAF, and Canadian in the RCAF. Unless we track the true birth place of everyone serving in the RAF in 1940 (not just the birth place on their records), we will not get an accurate number. I don't know if anybody has done this. That leaves us with inference, from the data we have.

The Clayton Knight Committee began recruiting Americans in spring 1939. At that time the American forces were not recruiting in large numbers. This meant Clayton Knight got huge recruitments in 1939 and early 1940. As the American military began to ramp up, Clayton Knight recruitment would have dropped off. This means most of the 8,000+ plus Americans they recruited by late 1941 to work in or for the RAF probably came early on, in 1939 and early 1940.

Clayton Knight got the cream of the crop. Experienced pilots, mechanics, and others. We know that large numbers of other Americans joined the RCAF and the RAF in the same period - 1939 and early 1940. We know from Norman's data, and from other on-line sources, that the total number of Americans that joined the RCAF or RAF was well over 10,000. This matches the inference from the Clayton Knight data. Most of these 10,000+ would have joined up early, in 1939 or 1940. After that, an eager American could enter the US military directly.

This all means that the number of Americans serving in or for the RAF in 1940 could have been around 10,000. We may never know exactly. Records weren't kept that will answer this.

I thought I said all that earlier.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Hello Bill,
But all these men or women would not be in an operational status as flying crew, ground crew etc etc in the UK during the BoB or before. They would surely still be in Canada undergoing training and such. Only a very few that had for one reason or other joined the RAF from before 1939/40 would be in that situation ?
And
From "American Eagles" by Tony Holmes.
"To enlist in a forign countries military was illegal from 1939. It was also unlawful to use a US passport to secure passage to a foreign country for the purposes of enlistment."
Maybe this is why at the later time (mentioned in an earlier post) some were stripped of their US citizenship and others were not due to the time they enlisted.

John, how about a link ?

All for now
Alex

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Hi Alex;

The Clayton Knight Committee used a number of ways to get around the American neutrality laws, including faking citizenship and travel papers. That is part of the reason a lot of the Americans in the RAF and RCAF show up as Canadians in the records. They had the backing of some senior elements within the US government, and managed to stay one small step ahead of the rest of the US government, most of the time. Think Iran-Contra, 1930s style. It was a little cloak-and-dagger at times.

Even the Clayton Knight rejects were told how to enter Canada as a tourist, and what to say when they signed up (wink wink, nudge nudge).

You are probably right, a lot could have still been in Canada by 1940. The original post just said "On another forum, an American has asserted that there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940." There were several RAF Schools and Manning Depots in Canada by then. Remember, Clayton Knight hand picked experienced people, and almost all went straight to being staff pilots, instructors,administrators or ground crew at units in Canada and the UK, not as students. Some later volunteered for active duty, and would have then undergone further training. Also, RAF records of the time didn't always distinguish between RAF and RCAF units. This was just fine with the Canadians at the time, by the way. To put in it perspective, remember that Canadian citizens (real or otherwise) traveled with UK passports until after the War.

We also need to remember that by 1940 the RAF was a big organization, and 10,000 or so people spread across it wouldn't have really stood out at the time. Another historical tidbit to put that in perspective: in September 1939 there were more Canadians with RAF commissions on active flying service in the RAF then there were officers in the entire RCAF, including the Auxiliary Squadrons.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

The assertion that 10,000 Americans were in the RAF during the BoB period or 1940 is erroneous. I have heard this before and I believe it is a "chinese whispers" evolution of the complete amount of Americans who served in the RCAF in WWII (which if memory serves was 8,500 or so - sorry away from my books at the moment).

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

I really hope someone can come up with a more definitive number, for any time period.

From Wikipedia (a dangerous source, I admit) Clayton Knight recruited a total of 8000+ Americans, for RAF and RCAF.

A quote from the RAF Museum web page about Americans in the RAF:

"The Americans who joined the RAF via Charles Sweeney or through the Clayton Knight Committee were the minority. Many more joined alone, usually by travelling to Canada and pretending to be Canadian."

see http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/online-e...-1914-1945.cfm

Another quote, from the Nanton Museum web site:

"On 7 December 1941, American aircrew serving in the RCAF totaled 6,129, with just over half, 3,886 under training [BCATP] in Canada. All Americans were given the opportunity to return to the US, and 3,797 requested transfer back to their own national forces. A special train left Washington stopping at every RCAF training base, and 1,759 Americans boarded the train. In total 5,263 Americans completed their service in the RCAF. From 1939-45 a total of 8,864 Americans served in the RCAF, and 704 were killed in training or combat."

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/s,claytonknight.html

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Alex,

Here's the link: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/back...orn-usa-4.html That should come up with page 4 of the thread. Post 107 onwards. The guy who asserted there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940 is 'coldsteal2'. It's a guitar forum, but with a 'Backstage' area where any topic can be discussed.

I think what Smithy says above is closer to the truth, and coldsteal2 is getting confused between the 1940 period alone, and the whole war, as are some members here...

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Dear John,

I consulted Floyd Williston who researched the history of 135 RCAF veterans who flew in the Battle of Britain. There may have been a large number of Americans in the RCAF and possibly RAF, but according to Floyd, "It is statistically impossible for there to have been 10,000 in the RAF alone and in 1940."

I am only familiar with Americans in the RCAF, who later flew as RCAF personnel attached to RAF units. Bill Walker provides many excellent points regarding the Clayton Knight Committee and the large number of Americans who enlisted in the RCAF at this early time period. Though many were in the RCAF, not all transfered to the USAAF. I have been told some Americans felt insulted by treatment shown by the USAAF, they returned to the USA, but chose to fly with the USN or USMC.

Someone in the UK should research WWII RAF records to determine the number of Americans who enlisted in the RAF yearly from the late 1930s onwards. I doubt if this number will reach the proportions achieved in the RCAF.

Norman Malayney

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Thanks, Norman, for the above post.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

Hello Bill,

Very interesting information regarding the Clayton Knight Committee, I wasn't personally aware of this at all, and as I am currently researching for a book project on this precise period it will provide a valuable new direction for my research.

It's a pity Mr Vasco doesn't appear to appreciate your assistance, or treat other forum members with much common courtesy either come to that. I applaud your self restraint though.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Ian

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

According to Fydenchuk in "Immigrants of War", 750 Americans served in the RAF throughout WWII. This figure (to my eyes at least) seems to be realistic.


So all up, that would make roughly for a figure of 10,000 Americans who served in the RAF and RCAF throughout the duration of the war.

Re: Americans in the RAF in 1940
 

John
The idea that there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940 is bull's hit.
Less than a dozen American pilots participated in the Battle of Britain and 244 served in the Eagle squadrons which began to appear at the very end of this battle.
In 1940 the RAF wanted pilots rather than ground-crew, pen-pushers etc and they could get these from the pre-war regulars augmented by the first conscripts. The RAF was obsessed with pilots who, in multi-engined aircraft, were expected to fly, navigate, command and watch out for Kryptonite.
Even with the limited statistical information above it is clear that in 1940 there were no more than 100 Americans in the RAF and that is probably pushing it, although in August 1918 a surprisingly high number of RAF aircrew were born under the Star Spangled Banner. Most Americans wanting to join up in World War Two would indeed join the RCAF but by Pearl Harbor there were only 6,700 Americans in that organisation.
Regards
Tango Echo Dog