For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Hello,

I am trying to figure out how, how many and which He 162 were brought to the US after the end of WWII. Here's what I found out:

• T2-489: Red 1, W.Nr. 120077
• T2-493: White 7, W.Nr. 120222
• T2-494: Yellow 6, W.Nr. probably 30012
• T2-504: White 23, W.Nr. 120300

Yellow 6 was brought to Kassel before it went to the US. I suspect the others in above list as well, but that's a pure assumption from me (does anybody have any evidence that would support this assumption?).

Now, www.indianamilitary.org states the following:

"The Americans, under the command of Col. Watson, claimed three machines as part of Operation Lusty, one of them being Lt. Hanf’s Red 1. The three He-162s were taken to Merseburg, an Allied collection point for captured equipment and then taken to Kassel (they may have been flown to these two locations by the Americans) where they were dismantled, crated, loaded on rail cars and sent to the French port of Cherbourg in June, 1945.
They were then loaded aboard the Liberty ship; Richard J. Gatling, along with a large amount of captured German material and shipped to the United States"


That leaves following questions:

• If only 3 were claimed by Op. Lusty and brought to the US by the liberty ship Richart J. Gatling, how did the 4th one arrive in the US?

• Does anybody have the list of aircraft on Richard J. Gatling? The "Sources" of above website mentions "USSAF in Europe memo, Shipment of GAF Equipment and Inventory List for the Richard J. Gatling."

• At least White 4 120067 and White 3 120028 were also at Kassel and another unknown one. That makes 7 in total that were in US hands. Most sources only state 3 He 162 that were handed over to the US. Can anybody explain the difference?

Cheers,
Roger

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Does really nobody have more information about the He 162 that went to the US?

Thanks,
Roger

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Roger,

Your information regarding FE-489, W.Nr. 120077, Red 1, is correct. But there are errors in your list of the other three He 162s brought to the States:

FE-493, was YELLOW 7 not white. There are color shots of it in print. True, the number 7 was outlined in white, but the number itself was yellow.

FE-494, was He 162 A-1, W.Nr. 310017, Yellow 6, which may not have been reassembled once in arrived at Wright Field. I understand it was used as an instructional tool ,and if this is true, probably explains why it has fallen through the cracks in so many historical reports.

FE-504, was W.Nr. 120230 but was reassembled in the States with the tail from W.Nr. 120222; which I think it probably still has.

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Hi Harold,

Thanks for your reply to my request.

120222: I still think it was "White 7" and not "Yellow 7" as there exists a nice color photo of it during an exhibition in the US. See e.g. the following link for the color photo: http://cs.finescale.com/forums/2/1004175/ShowPost.aspx

It is cearly a "White 7" and not "Yellow 7". Did you refer to another color shot? I only know five color wartime or immediate postwar color photos of He 162s and none of a Yellow 7.

310012: Regarding Yellow 6: I did a typo and forgot the 1 (30012 instead 310012). But as far as I understood from He 162 experts there is no photo that shows its real W.Nr. and 310012 is according to the latest research the most probable one. If not, why do you think it was 310017?

120230: I totally agree with you. Again a typo. My mistake! Sorry.

Cheers,
Roger

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

from a list of FE/T2 designations at http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=4740

FE-489/T2-489 - Heinkel He162A-2 - W.Nr.120077 - static display Palnes of Fame museum

FE-493/T2-493 - Heinkel He162A-1 - W.Nr.unknown - possible W.Nr.120067 "White 7", fate unknown

FE-494/T2-494 - Heinkel He162A-2 - W.Nr.120017 - possible "Yellow 6" of JG1 and used as source of spares for T2-489. Fate unknown

FE-504/T2-504 - Heinkel He162A-2 - W.Nr.120230 - on static display NASM Silver Hill

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Too lazy to check any reference, nor do I know the history of this bird, but...

based on this (poor quality) photo I'd say that a yellow seven with a white outline is just as possible. It may look white(ish) at first glance, but closer inspection doesn't rule out the other option, IMHO it actually makes a good case for the opposite.

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Roger,

Regarding the color of the number seven, I have an excellent quality transparancy similar to the one you cite and tell you beyond doubt the "7" was yellow thinly outlined in white. But I can also say this yellow is quite bright and not what you would expect. As to yellow 6, I have it somewhere that it was officially listed by American authorities as "120017" but my source claimed this was a misread for 310017. However, in all honesty I can't testify this source was infallible, so maybe it really was 130012. Perhaps someone else has better evidence?

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

The source I use is War Prizes by Phil Butler. T2-504 is given WNr 120230, reassembled using the tail of T2-493.



Ed

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Kutscha,

Thanks for the list. "Yellow 7" (as it now turned out) was not 120067 it just received the wing of 120067. The fuselage was 120222.

Harold & Ruy,

The evidence is convincing and I have to revise my statement about 120222. It must have been "Yellow 7" then. Thanks for correcting me!

Yellow 6 cannot have been 120017 as it was an A-1 with the camouflage pattern of He 162 built at Bernburg. So, I would say 310xxx. I have checked my sources again and 310012 is also not based on clear evidence. So, 310012 may be the more probable W.Nr. for "Yellow 6"

Ed,

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Thank you all for your comments.

Regards,
Roger

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Hummm! Okay which one is this one?

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW6/He162-28f.jpg

You can't see the tail in this picture but the WNr is 120222.

Best to all,

Walt

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Hi Walt!

Edit: Checked again my sources. Don't look like 120077. Camouflage is not original german. It's overpainted. Looks like "White "23"

Roger, "Yellow 6" is 100% sure a plane built by Junkers Bernburg! So W.Nr. starts with 310XXX.

Cheers, Simon

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

My initial thoughts that it was "White 23" too Simon... but the lack of camo along the length of the engine nacelle doesn't match any of the images of "White 23" I have access too.

In fact, the only image I can find comes anywhere near matching the engine nacelle scheme are post-war shots of FE-489/T2-489. However, other aspects of FE-489's scheme don't match with Walt's photo. War Prizes actually states on a caption for a colour picture taken in 1970, that FE-489 retained its original colour scheme, but this is shown as being incorrect when you look at the period images of this He162 on page 111 of "Heinkel He162 Spatz" by R.Forsyth & E.Creek [Classic, 2008] where the nacelle is a solid colour and not anything like later images of WNr.120077... if I were a betting man, I'd go with it being a post war mid-repaint image of WNr.120077...

@ Walt/everybody - do we know from where the image is reproduced from?

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

The same image, but showing the tail with Wnr 120222, appears in the Japanese "Aireview's German Military Aircraft In The Second World War". Copyright 1958. I'm reasonably certain it was taken in the US. The first few pages are all of aircraft with FE numbers except for the Heinkel. There are several other photos of this aircraft. It was in the German Aircraft Exhibit in Washington DC, in 1946(?).

Walt

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

That photo shows "White 23". A photo that shows its right fuselage side shows a very distinctive larger dark spot just in front of the gun trough which is also visible on the photos of "White 23" before all or part of the camouflage was repainted.

I once had a photo in my collection (unfortunately no longer and I didn't make any scans) of a He 162 at an exhibition in the US with a long yellow arrow. This must have been the real 120222 ("Yellow 7") as "White 23" ended at NASM partly in original camouflage and "Red 1" at Planes of Fame (I think it its repainted scheme but without yellow arrow).

Cheers,
Roger

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

The "White 23" in mid-repaint post-war makes sense especially as there is a lack on number too... just as well I'm not a betting man! :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: For He 162 Experts: He 162 that went to the US
 

Most of those smaller airplanes which came by trains and many spare parts were loaded aboard of the liberty ship 0419 ‘Richard J. Gatling’. From the 26th of June 1945, ‘Richard J. Gatling’ load list we found: three complete but dismounted He 162 + one not complete + many tails and BMW 003 jet engines shipped aboard. This ship was planed to left Cherbourg for Le Havre to load-up troops on the 12th of July and then to reach New-York around 1st of August.
At Cherbourg there was also the British air carrier ‘HMS Reaper’ that left the French harbor for the U.S.A. on 19th July 1945 loaded with 41 German airplanes and helicopters, most of them airworthy under a protective "shrink wrap" made of “eronel” to protect them from the sea spray on the deck. The ‘HMS Reaper’ inventory shows only one He 162, which made the travel very probably inside the boat since it is not visible on the deck’s pictures. (Cf 39/45 N°261)


The three clearly pictured He162 in the U.S. are ‘w 23’, ‘w7’ and ‘red 1’. Strangely we don’t have any photos showing any of them at Kassel, probably simply because they don’t stop long enough at Kassel on their way to Cherbourg. It is believed that the fourth one (W.Nr.120017?) left not pictured in the U.S. cause of it’s use as spare parts. Got no information about the fifth not complete one (fuselage only ?).

IMHO it's very doubtful that yellow 6 found it's way to the USA since we have some pictures showing it partly disable so at a pretty late time to what be believed to be Kassel area.