New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Dear all,

What a lucky day! I just chanced on those great, hitherto unknown to me, pics showing Bf109K-4's, all posted by WW2vet on Flickr. First two pics show of a Bf109K-4 "Chevron small 5", of IV. /JG 53:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38808/sizes/o/

Notice the Me262 fuselage behind the Bf109K-4. Another picture shows some more Me 262 wrecks with, in the background, the same Bf109K-4.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38544/sizes/o/

The last picture shows at least eight brand new Bf109K-4 fuselages amidst other, not nearly identified Bf109 fuselages.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38498/sizes/o/

No precise location is given with those pics. Gathering from the identified places the father of WW2vet went, one notices Grafenwohr... Might this be a clue as to the location?
All my thanks to WW2vet!

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

To regret I can not open any links. Can you provide this links in code box?

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hello Pilot,

I just fixed this issue; the links are working now.

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

The "scribble paint" on the 262 may be from KGj 54.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Thanks Dan for your input. Was KGj 54 the only unit to use this remarquable pattern?

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hello,

the K-4 on the first picture is quite exceptional in having the round hatch above the footstep in fuselage section 2. On the G this hatch provided access to the main compass, but on that was moved on the K further backward into fuselage section 6, so the hatch in section 2 could be omitted.
Another feature specific to the K seems probably weakly discernible on the fuselage in the background of the third picture: On the F and G there was a large trapezoidal hatch with rounded corners on the starboard bottom of fuselage section 2. This was replaced on the K by a smaller circular hatch. The slightly darker round spot at the rear of bottom of section 2 might well be that hatch.

Regards,
klemchen

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

In the last picture - what about the thick wavey horizontal line that can been seen on five of the fuselages? Most interesting.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Chevron - 5 - This wouldn't be Barkhorn's kite...?

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Thank you Marc :) Images are really interesting... maybe to open again files with K layers and make some of subject from images....

Cheers :)

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

That's unknown Marc. But some KGj 54 262's are known to have used that type of camo.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Interesting photos, thanks.

Can anyone make out what the text is on the fuel decal on the IV./JG 53 K-4?

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

HI Klemchen!

The mutterkompass was moved back in the G-series to make room for the MW50 tank :)...but...they continued to make that fuselage section with the round hatch. The K parts list still shows this hatch as being present, so most likely it would represent and early Me109K...before the standardized removal of this hatch. :)

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hello all,

Yes most interesting... We can see this thick wavey line on the following picture, taken on following site:

http://www.luchtoorlog.be/me109g_f3.htm

... But still no explaination.

Regards,

Franck.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Klemchen and harrisson 987,

thanks for the insight in the finer points of accesss hatches locations in the late G and early K fuselages, it is appreciated.

SMF 144,

Any other sources supporting that "Chevron 5" was one of the machines flown by Barkhorn? Any Wnr known?

As to the location of the Bf 109 K-4 fuselages dumped, Etraro over on LEMB suggested Wertheim as he located another picture of the same dump in the just released LO+ST book (GI photos of Luftwaffe planes, see the link here: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=8421) compiled by Hideki Noro.

SMF 144 and Ouidjat,

Yes, very interesting indeed this wavy RLM 76 line above the wing junction line; Thomas Poruba and Kees Mol do point out that the Bf 109 K-4's found in Wertheim have this special camouflage pattern, differing from all other known productions runs (Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 40, with two photos).

Thanks to all for your inputs.
Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

That wavey line indicates IV/Gruppe

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hi Dan,

Thanks btw for your precision concerning the Me 262 of KGj 54.

As for the wavy line, I understand a wavy streak of RLM 76 which partly covers the ,ower edge of the RLM 81 RLM 83 segment camouflage, as shown on those unfinished fuselages dumped probably at Wertheim, as this unique camouflage mode is so far only documented on Bf109K-4's found at Wertheim (Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 40).

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hi Marc,

concerning the Me 262 with meander camo - on p.29 of EF5: Stormbird colours you can find two photographs of W.Nr.110506 stored on a wagon in disassembled condition.

IMO the camo of the Bf109K-4 fuselages is not as special as it may seem.

On this picture you can see the regular late-war fuselage camo according to the Os (Oberflächenschutzliste) for the last 109s:
http://www.luchtoorlog.be/img/me109g/monta.jpg
The photo was taken in front of the western production hall of Mtt´s production site at KZ Flossenbürg, Northern Bavaria. The fuselages are complete with tail unit, cockpit equipment and engine unit ready to be transported down the road to Flossenbürg railway station where the complete wing units from Altenhammer joined the fuselages. Then the seperate parts were transported on rail to Vilseck, where the final assembly and painting took place. Here you can see the "classical" camo with RLM 81 and 83 at the sides, the darker shade painted down to the lower fuselage edge to serve as background behind the white simplified Balkenkreuz. The other paint areas show a rather higher borderline and form that typical zig-zag line characteristic for this camo system (those K-4s with the freehand-painted three-digit W.Nr., you remember?). The lower fuselage here is obviously completely painted in the bright greenish RLM 76 variation. Btw, the parts lying beside the completed fuselages are identical to the ones you are showing. Anybody knows where they belong to?
The fuselages on the scrap pile are in pre-assembled and pre-painted condition (some even without dark camo), but the camo is essentially the same concerning the RLM 81 and 83 areas. The irregular RLM 76 spray seems to equalize the lower camo edge and raises the division line between dark and bright. This is made intentionally because you can also see a soft spray of RLM 76 covering the areas left and right of the Balkenkreuz.
This makes sense for me only in case the painting of the lower fuselage in RLM was abolished to save material and manhours - not an uncommon situation during the last war days. The fuselage bottoms appear to be left in bare aluminum. Maybe Erla followed this instruction by painting the fuselage sides down to the lower edge of the Balkenkreuz - those fuselages were fabricated the other way IMO.

The caption of the photographs is said to be Grafenwöhr (Vilseck like nowadays being situated at the southern border of the Grafenwöhr training ground) - the railway visible in the background may lead to KZ Flossenbürg?

On the other hand - how certain is the caption "Wertheim" for this other fuselages? Vilseck-Heringnohe (the exact designation) is partially surrounded by woods and the US armies approached from the west - maybe a wrong memory?

Regards

Roland

Edit: The striking railway with a train on it appears on all photographs. Seem to be taken at the same site?

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Dear Roland,

Thanks for your highly appreciated comment. This leaves now both places open: Wertheim as Vilseck-Heringnohe have the same hilly surrounding... I will check out all indicated pics once at home in order to get a clearer picture.

As a side note, Poruba and Mol did analyze this ultimate camouflage variation for them only to be seen on the Bf109K-4's found at Wertheim, as stated on the captions of the photographs they used in their book. Those Bf 109K-4's dispersed under cover of a forest are btw well known pics which were published - for the first time? - in Thomas Hitchcock's 109 Gallery way back in 1973, the first book which addressed the late Bf 109 version in a systematic way.

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hallo Marc,

I´d like to agree with you that the "Grafenwöhr" and the "Wertheim" pictures show the same camouflage. But I´ve never read about Bf 109 assembly lines at Grafenwöhr or Wertheim, at least Grafenwöhr certainly didn´t have neither an airfield nor plane production. The Luftwaffe airfield next to Grafenwöhr is Vilseck - Heringnohe and here the G-6, the G-14 and the K-4 were completed:
http://home.arcor-online.de/alois.la...te/vilseck.htm
The airfield is in the background; the bent road crossing the photo from right bottom towards the runway marks the former railway supply tracks.

Anyway, the fuselages didn´t reach their destination and they seem to feature the very last camo variation for the Bf109K-4. The almost-ready Flossenbürg K-4s fuselages still have RLM 76-painted bottoms, those prefabricated fuselages only have rudimentary RLM 76-spraying at the sides.

Regards

Roland

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hallo Roland,

I follow you easily for Grafenwöhr; but were there no final assembly at Wertheim? Or acceptance flights of newly assembled machines like at Kralupy for the DIANA Bf109G-10? Any input highly appreciated!

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hi harrison987,

thank you for reminding me that the Mutterkompass was moved to the rear already on late Gs, the round hatch still remaining there. It was not unusual to keep features that had become obsolete, probably in order to avoid confusion within the production process; think e.g. of G-5 cowlings being used on many G-6s and G-14s. But one of the main reasons for introducing the K was standardizing and cleaning up of production procedures; that is why so many "small parts" were changed for the K.
I do not think that the pictures in the K part list are very reliable, because often drawings were simply taken from old lists. The K list contains even some drawings showing the large rectangular hatch in section 5 (instead of the trapezoidal hatch in section 4). On the drawings of the fuselage structure Baugruppe 109.180, p. 26/28, the circular Mutterkompass hatch is deleted (and the smaller circular hatch on the starboard bottom of section 2 present). Surprisingly, there is also a footstep on starboard, although to my knowledge this was omitted on real K-4s.

Best wishes,
klemchen

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

No one knows what the text on the fuel decal is? I am real curious as IV./JG53 was one of the units that had been cleared to use 1.98ata boost which required C3 fuel.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Unfortunately I don´t have any information about a Bf109 assembly at Wertheim. None of my reference material is listing this site. At least it is not included within the Messerschmitt-Regensburg production web. WNF Vienna seems to be too far for being incorporated. Maybe someone knows about an Erla connection of this site which would lead us on another track.

Is somebody able to identify the aforementioned identical parts on the Bf109K-4 pics? Are they Bf109 or Me 262 parts? I´m asking this because Flossenbürg was intended to produce Me 262 parts in the final months of the war...

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

These photos are very interesting - just got back from vacation - apart from everything discussed so far, did anyone notice that the fuel triangels on some of the 109's are in the wrong position, i.e. on the frame were they should have appeared on 109G's but not K's...

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hallo Roland,

Just back from holidays, I discover your input. Regarding the issue of an eventual Bf 109 K-4 production line in Wertheim, the just released book of Hideki Noro "LO+ST", published by Dainippon Kaiga, contains three photos of a camouflaged production area labelled "near Wertheim" (p. 100 - 102, photos # 135 - 137). Photo 135 is the often published three quarter left view from the rear of a Bf 109 K-4 standing in a forest, with this now obvious wawy RLM 76 line sprayed alont the lower fuselage camouflage. The second one shows another Bf 109 engineless fuselage standing on its landing gear amidst, according to the caption, the same forest, shot from three quarter right from the front. As this fuselage is covered by a tarpaulin, onle the RLM 76 wawy line gives some kind of an indication this might be also a K-4 fuselage.

The third (picture 137) photo is the most interesting as it shows the entrance of a railroad tunnel with a makeshift wooden door, and six Bf 109 wings either stacked along the siding walls of the tunnel entrance, or fallen on the track. The tunnel entrance is also surrounded by the same forest. If the location is ascertained, this would be a very relevant element for identifiying a production site for Bf 109 K-4's, and as you ask for, for an Erla production.

Interestingly enough, two more pictures (#138 - 139) do probably shed some more informations although their location is not mentionned precisely. The first, (p. 103, # 138) shows at least six Bf 109K-4's fuselages, complete with engines all in-line under the cover of an unfortunately unprecised forest.
The second is a piled up scrap of Bf 109K-4 fuselages, already scanned an posted by Etraro over at LEMB:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=8421

After checking the Flickr pic with the one published in "LO+ST", IMHO, I would assume they depict the one and same scrap pile, captionned in Flickr as being depicted in Wertheim.

Where are we now? For my part I would venture the educated guess an assembly line of Bf 109K-4's was put up near Wertheim in a railroad tunnel, like the similar DIANA line operated by WNF near Tisnòv for producing Bf 109 G-10's. As to whom may have operated it, I, like you, Roland, am hoping for more informations.

As for the second part of your question, I do only recognize a lone Jumo 213 (?) engine among the piles of Bf 109K-4 fuselages, and, on the right, another fuselage segment stemming from an unidentified plane....

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hello Cpt_Farrel,

No, I didn't. Thanks for pointing out. Does this necessarily mean we have other Bf 109 fusleages types here? the ones I can identify (8) are all K-4's...

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Unikum,

Thanks for your input. I cannot recognize any clear K-4 feature
on this pic. Any idea where it was taken?

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

There isn't any known connection between Erla and Wertheim. Erla and the shifted factories were concentraded in Saxonia/Thuringia.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

I dont know.I input this foto only for interest
http://cgi.ebay.de/BF-109-K-4-Wrack-...d=p3286.c0.m14

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hello Marc-André,

Unless I am mistaken, this is not a photo of a K-4 taken at Prag in 1945, but rather, it is one of a series of G/AS’s photographed in France in 1944.

Steve Sheflin

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Steve, you're smack on the money! Actually, this picture is part of a four pictures set taken in an unknown French airfield sometimes in the autumn of 1944, and depicting a derelict Bf 109G, which precise subtype I'm not able to make out. Another E-bay ripp-off busted, as all were published way back in 1988 by Carl Hidebrandt's excellent Broken Eagle Volume 2, devoted to the Bf 109 G/K, Part one, p. 2 - 3. Original credit is given to Rutherford and Reynolds...

Thanks for making me check back those excelent Hildebrandt publications, which in turn made me stumble on more pictures of the Wertheim assembly line!

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Thanks Rasmussen. So which company did operate this final assembly line? I found more pictures of the assembly line in Carl Hildebrandt's Broken Eagles, vol. 2, devoted to the Bf109 G/K's, part one (Fighter pictorials, 1988, p. 9).

Cheers
Marc

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

As far as I can see they're all K-4's - seems like whoever did the stencils obviously worked a lot on G frames earlier :)

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

http://flyingart.twoday.net/

see Wertheim !

Obviously Pilot Riediger tested airplanes for RLM in Wertheim after assembly

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6Y W-Nr. ?95??2
Mit FuG 16 ZY, Morane-Mast, Erla-Haube, normalem Seitenleitwerk aber hohem Sporn. RLM Abnahme, Wertheim Januar 1945. Die W-Nr. auf dem Seitenruder des Fotos ist schwer identifizierbar, sie könnte 95182 oder 195182 lauten.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Hello Fliegerhorst,

Flugkaptän Anton Riediger indeed was a BAL-Abnahmeflieger first at Fieseler Kassel and later at Flugzeugwerke Mannheim (Flumann).

His flight-log has 31 acceptance-flights at Wertheim starting 13.06.1944 and ending 09.03.1945 with large gaps within. Most were repaired airframes, but the last one was a Bf 109 K-4, WNr. 333.972.

All Werknummern for Wertheim are within the known Werknummern-batches for Bf 109s. There is no a/c with a 195.xxx, 95.xxx or xxx.182 Werknummer reported.

HTH

Carl

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

I would like to collect all the infos concerning Wertheim, since all infos get lost somewhen,

Here in Wertheim there is a collector, I will call him.

By the way, the Luftwaffe parade drum of Kommandantur Wertheim was lately sold in the internet

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

this confirms the Flumann connection to Kreuzwertheim, Bavaria.
As I posted before there was the so called Flumann Halle, used by company Kümmerling after WW2. It was removed for a kinder garden.

Flumann had cooperation with company Stuhl Hofmann (furniture company, chairs), just beside the Flumann Halle, Hofmann also producing for Flumann.

Flumann, Erla, makes sense

By the way, see www.schlempertshof.de, Wertheim´s forgotten junior airport, direction Hardheim and also Neckarelz. "Dornberg airfield".

with own railway from Walldürn.

Re: New Bf109K-4 pictures
 

Why and which? :confused: