He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

During a trawl of Ultra transcripts for something entirely different I came across the following and noted them down in case it added any "new" detail. I quote it (roughly) as per transcript:

19 August 1940

"He 111 crashed 200 metres from beach and burnt out 6km SE of Les Sables D'Olonne. 6N + ND. Yellow D."

This clearly refers to the KGr 100 loss that we know about, although something slighty awry with the codes seemingly.

14 August 1940

I/KG54 report four x Ju 88's missing:

W.Nr's: 8084, 4098, 4084, 4083

Three crashed on landing. Over 40%:

W.Nr's 4046, 4087, 2083

II/KG54 lost:

W.Nr's 610?, 3117 and 6096 missing.
3119 and 3108 crashed on landing."

In the case of the "610?" I would suggest this to be 6102 as I identified this to be the W.Nr of the machine downed at Swanbourne Lake, Arundel, from recovered wreckage.

Lastly, at some date in early August:

"Me 110 of II/ZG2 lost near Verdun. A2+DK. Crew OK"

Not checked Peter Cornwell/John Vasco for the latter, but thought these little snippets might, possibly, be of value to someone (Larrry, Peter C?) before they get buried and forgotten in my note book!

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Andy,

Most appreciative of your thinking of us. We will certainly integrate these into our now-massive data base.

Regards,

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Andy,

Echoing Larry, many thanks for some fascinating extra detail that I have incorporated in the EOE Lw loss tables. As you say, the codes as quoted for the KGr.100 loss have been somehow corrupted but could possibly have been 6N+DL ?

The KG54 data is extremely valuable even though it is not possible to relate individual WNrs. to specific aircraft. On the face of it, I./KG54 seem to have recorded two more total losses on August 13, 1940, than have been hitherto recorded ? This information also throws serious doubt on the validity of the painted '2001' discovered on wreckage at Treyford as being the possible WNr.

Unfortunately, I cannot tie the II./ZG2 WNr. to a specific loss with any degree of certainty at present but have it filed for future reference as you never know what is going to turn up next on a project of this scope.

Thanks again.

Peter

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Hi

The Bf 110 C-4 / A2 + DK must be the loss of 5./ZG 2 from 06. Aug. 1940 nearby Verdun. The cause of the crash (30%) was bad weather.

best wishes
JoMe

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

JoMe

That would make sense as regards to the date, as this was picked up on the Ultra intercepts of 8 August.

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Hello,

Do any of our other He111 Ju88 or KG54 Hawks like Dr David Ransome, Ed North or Rudi Stessens have any other references to these He111 & Ju88 W.Nr.s that might help us ID the a/c codes or other info on these KG54 losses?

I/KG54 report four x Ju 88's missing:

W.Nr's: 8084, 4098, 4084, 4083

Three crashed on landing. Over 40%:

W.Nr's 4046, 4087, 2083

II/KG54 lost:

W.Nr's 610?, 3117 and 6096 missing.
3119 and 3108 crashed on landing."


Regards,

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

> Andy, thanks for sharing this information with us.

> Larry: the only thing I've found is that according to Radtke's loss list in his book on KG 54 Ju 88 WNr 6096 made a 20 % crash-landing at Lechfeld on February 6th 1941. This doesn't seem to add up with the Ultra message.

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Rudi

An interesting piece of detail and seems to indicate that 6096 may not have been missing after all!

Of course, the Ultra intercepts cannot be regarded as absolute in terms of accuracy. Many things could corrupt the detail recorded. Incorrect information could have been transmitted - ie an aeroplane that was originally reported "missing" could have later turned up. On the other hand, the message sender could have sent an incorrect number in error or misunderstood the detail of the message. Equally, something could have gone awry in the intercept stage and perhaps an incorrect number transcribed. Many other possibilities for error, too!

At best the Ultra intercepts offer up some little nuggets of information that need careful examination and interpretation in light of collective information and data that is now to hand, thus enabling us to better understand the sense and context of those fragmented intercepts.

Not an exact science, unfortunately!

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

I've only minimal acquaintance with the 1940 stuff but the 1944/45 material is in a completely different league in terms of the interpretation and context that Bletchley Park were able add to the basic messages. The more information they amassed, the more they could understand.

It's never 100% reliable but they did get extremely good as time went on. I love the comments where they point out that the Germans are making mistakes in their own reports.

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

And, of course, Radtke could have made a typo in his loss list too.

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Hi all, since I am adressed by Larry..

I find no real problems with the 12 W.Nrs. given by Andy and 1 by Peter Cromwell. All of them falling into blank slots (except 6096). Ref to 6096 of Gesch.Erg.St./KG 54 (is not typo of Radke, it appears in Ge.Qu.6.Abt. losses) but may in my opinion have been typo of 6069 known twice later with IV/KG 54 and the period between accidents is long enough to effect an repair.

There were quite a number of losses on the 11th by I/KG 54 and some of the losses or damaged ones (may in my opinion) possibly have been damaged earlier and their damage assessment only reported on the 14th (?)

W.Nr. 2001 too has no known loss (to me at least). There is one more loss recorded as happening on 14th (and reported in Ge.Qu.6.Abt. losses on the 16.08., as were all those of the 13th). Can this possibly be that one (?) and thus not included in the 14th message. I have no data on the Treyford example.

Finally, it seems to me that both sources (Ultra and Ge.Qu.6.Abt losses) have some errors and perhaps neither should be taken as ´more accurate´.

Best regards
ed

Re: He 111 loss 19 August 1940 (& Other losses)
 

Hi folks, i have another of the 4 missing! Ju88's on file, from I/KG54 reportedly missing on the 14.8.40.

Ju88A-4 W.Nr 4084 7/KG76 Destroyed by flak 3.9.42 in Russia Pl Qu49344.

Source GQM loss lists microfilm No 7. page13, item No261.

More fuel to the fire!

Regards,
Steve.