Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi guys


On a website I have noted a combat loss of a Bf109F (WkNr.7677) of 4 (Eins) JFS5 on 15 October 1941 Le Havre area.

Please enlighten me!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Enlighten you as to what?

BTW, this is listed as an E-7, not an F. It fits well into a range of other E-7 numbers.

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi John

It surprised me that a Bf109 from the Fighter School was involved in a combat mission. Did the pilot survive?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi.

It is not necessarily true that the aircraft was lost in a combat situation (others might be able to give further information).

There are three aircraft of the unit listed as damaged/lost on this date:

WNr 7677:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113515

WNr 12691:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113516

WNr 5617:
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113517

Initially there are no indications for an aerial combat in this list, usually the aircraft on combat patrol would have an 'E' in the list indicating this. The three losses for Jagdfliegerschule 5 on this date does not have this.

It woudl be of interest to see if a NVM exist for the pilot of WNr 12691, as it would probably tell us a bit more about the circumstances.

Note that I am not saying that it was no combat, I am just saying that the list and the loss reasons given does not state that it was.

And for your question re 7677: The pilot parachuted apparantly landing safely.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Experienced instructor pilots flew with JFS 5 and flew on ops hence Eins=Einsatz. Erik Mombeek's book on JG 2 and the Prien magnus opus details ops, kills and losses of JFS whilst on the Western Front in 1941

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Thanks guys

My knowledge has been increased!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi Brian,

"Les Pertes de la Chasse de Jour Allemonde en France" Vol 2 (Avions Hors Serie 15) by Pierre Watteeuw states :-

Bf109 E-7 (7677) 7 Blanc 100% 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Combat et propre Flak, s'ecrase: pres'Epouville, 11 km NE du Havre.
Endommage a l'atterrissage: Fl.Pl. Le Havre
pilot bailed out - not named.

In English I roughly translate that the 109 was hit by flak on a combat flight,
pilot escaped by parachute and the aircraft was destroyed in the crash
( here in Oldham we do not speak a lot of French so please excuse this attempt to translate)

Cheers

Bruce

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Dear Brian,
gentlemen,

the three losses on this date concerned 4.(Eins.)/JFS 5, an operational Staffel of JFS 5 that saw active service on the Channel Front from June 1941 onwards. On October 15th, 1941, the Staffel was scrambled against a Blenheim formation covered by Spitfires that was attacking Le Havre. 4.(Eins.)/JFS 5 filed eight claims, six Spitfires and two Blenheims, for the loss of three Messerschmitts. Bf 109 E-7, WerkNr. 7677, "white 7", was piloted by Lt. Elmar Resch, who was shot down by friendly fire - Flak - and who bailed out wounded. For details see JFV 5, p. 482 pp.

Hope this helps

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi Bruce and Jochen - an illustrious pair!

Many thanks for expanding on this enquiry. The more 'cooks' the merrier!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi, Jochen

According to the GenQu listings the pilot of 7677 was not wounded although he bailed out. This list give that Resch was flying 12691, and wounded in a crash flying this aircraft.

Do you have a VLM or other information that contradict this? Would be interesting to see it

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Dear Andreas,

since I'm just about to leave for my holidays I cannot dig deep into this right now, but I seem to remember that the entry in our loss list was based on Resch's flight log. Will check upon my return and come back to you.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Have a good holiday Jochen

Do we know anything about Lt. Elmar Resch?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi Brian,
according to Pierre Watteeuw, Resch later flew with 11/JG.1 and was shot down and taken prisoner on August 23rd 1944 by a P.47 near Thorigny - he had been an instructor from April 1943 to August 1944

Cheers

Bruce

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

He also flew with JG 2

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi, Jochen

Have a nice vacation! Look forward to your answer when you find time.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

The 3 Bf 109s per loss records, Mr. Prien and his co-authors:
Bf 109E-7, 7677, Resch, Ltn. Elmar, , 4.(Eins.), Jagdfl.Sch. 5, weiße, 7 +, , , 15-Oct-41, WIA due to own Flak during Luftkampf. FSA., bei Epeuville per loss., Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/781, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen usw., p.463; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/771, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienstellen, p.117; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.488, , bei Harfleur, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109F-1, 5617, n.n., , 4.(Eins.), Jagdfl.Sch. 5, , , , , 15-Oct-41, Landing accident., WNr. 5611, Bruchlandung at Octeville per Prien/Bock., Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/781, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen usw., p.463; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/771, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienstellen, p.117; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.488, , bei Fl.Pl. Le Havre, 65%, F, , ,
Bf 109F-2, 12691, n.n., , 4.(Eins.), Jagdfl.Sch. 5, , , , , 15-Oct-41, Injured in crash., Ltn. Elmar Resch per loss., Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/781, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen usw., p.463; BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/771, Flzg.-Unfälle bei Schulen und sonstigen Dienstellen, p.117; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.488, , bei Le Havre, 100%, F, , ,

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi Jim

So is the outcome of this that both 7677 and 12691 were fired upon by own flak, with Resch baling out of the former, wounded, while the unnamed pilot of the latter crash-landed, injured/wounded?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Hi, Brian

I will check what is in the original on RL 2 III/781, and then await Jochen's answer with regards to Resch' Flugbuch.

RL 2 III/771 clearly state that Resch was wounded as the pilot of 12691, while an unnamed pilot bailed out of 7677 successfully without injuries sustained.

Hopefully a VLM or Resch' own notes will clear this matter, in other cases we will just have to live with the fact that we do not know beyond a reasonable doubt which aircraft Resch flew on this day.

BTW - any of you guys going to Speyer in October?

Regards,
Andreas

Re: Bf109F lost 15 October 1941
 

Dear Andreas,
gentlemen,

I have to come back to the losses of 5. (Eins.)/JFS 5 on October 15th, 1941, especially to the loss of Elmar Resch as it is recorded in his flight log.

Looking at it now, it is apparent that I have made a mistake in our loss list as the flight log contains the following information:

Flight no. x35, 7th Feindflug for Resch, Bf 109 F, ( white ) 7, scramble, Octeville at 13.16 hrs., contact with enemy, taken to parachute at 13.30 hrs. near Harfleur.

This of course means that you are right stating that Resch was flying Bf 109 F-2, WerkNr. 12 691, on that day and it also leads to the fact that this a/c was marked "white 7".

Sorry for causing you some extra work, the mistake was entirely on my side.

Regards

Jochen Prien