"One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

6 Aug 45 - The B-29 (#82) of the 509 Composite Group based at Tinian overflew the Japanese city of Hiroshima. Within approx. 15 secs of the scheduled time bombadier Thomas Ferrebee released the atomic bomb known
as Little Boy, with an aiming point of a t-shaped bridge. Col. Paul W. Tibbetts, Jr. commanded that mission and, after the bomb was released, executed a sharp diving turn with Maj. Charles Sweeney (flying "The Great
Artiste") on his wing after dropping the instrument package to monitor the effects of the explosion.

Let's remember the courage, skill & precision of these men in trying to bring a
brutal war to an end.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

"one hundred thousand people dead".

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

aaatripp -

I absolutely concur. Unfortunately, those who have the courage, principles and honesty to stand up for freedom and human dignity and fight the forces of evil are becoming fewer and fewer. Dropping the bomb was the right decision at the time and it is by that standard that it must be judged; not in retrospect decades later by those who were not there or even born yet.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Thanks, Mr. deZeng-----

You obviously "get it" and recognize the difficulty of this mission. Interesting reading are Tibbets' book ENOLA GAY and Sweeney's book WARS END. The contrasts of these two missions are amazing. When you read about the problems on the 2nd mission, 9 Aug 45, it is truly a feat of airmanship by Sweeney that they were able to land at Okinawa....with only a few gallons left in the massive B-29! The Japanese city of Kokura was the primary target on 9 Aug and was spared only due to weather conditions (also smoke from other bombing obscured 1 or both targets).

To others----this thread was not started to debate the decision to drop the two atomic bombs. It is a sincere salute to the leaders, men, machines, organization and operational security which permitted SILVERPLATE to be successfully completed.

Tripp

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

9 Aug 45----a tribute to Charles Sweeney and his crew, bombardier Kermit Behan and the others aboard #77 BOCK'S CAR (Sweeney's GREAT ARTISTE was loaded with instrumentation which could not be easily switched between a/c). Sweeney had swapped a/c with a/c commander Fred Bock. The mission was plaqued with problems and is a thoughtful study of many elements of command.

By careful fuel management, trading altitude for distance, Sweeney was able to stretch his limited fuel enough to make it to his emergency field at Okinawa. Luckily the a/c was extremely light (the "Fat Man" atomic bomb had been dropped, they were very low on fuel, and most armament had been removed long before the mission). On final approach one engine was out (fuel). Upon touchdown another of the Wright R-3350 turbosupercharged radial engines quit, and by the end of the rollout, a third engine quit. When they measured the fuel in the tank it was about 10 gallons! So, read Sweeney's book WARS END for the entire story.
Tripp

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

There could have been a far better way to force Japan to surrendered by used the atom bomb.
They could have radio in to the japs to look out to sea and watch what will happen 5 miles away. After that demo, we could have told them that there are many more bombs that size ready to be drop on mainland at designated cities if they do not declare a unconditional surrender in "X" amount of days.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

I rarely comment on this type of thing, but this is exceptional.

Do you perhaps forget December 7, 1941?

Possibly you have also forgotten September 11, 2001.

Frankly, we were attacked, violently, with out warning. In both cases. We should send them a telegram? In both cases, these are (were) enemies who would not quit. You would prefer the projected casualties of an invasion of Japan?

I suggest you do a bit more research on the history of WW2 before making such callous remarks in the future.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Mr. DeZeng.

This is the worst case of absolute moral turpitude that I have seen. Do you realize that you are justifying every crime, every atrocity ever committed in human history. This absolute moral relativism you express eradicates any possibilty of anyone making any moral judgement.

The issue of whether dropping the atomic bomb is controversial. Trying to shout down criticism in the despicable manner adobted by you, and Mr. O' Connell is beyond contempt.

Birgir Thorisson.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Mr. Thorisson,

I am personally quite astonished you would find my comments a justification of atrocity. My comments show other wise; it ENDED one of the most horrible acts by humanity, the Second World War.

It's obvious you were not in preparation to invade the mainland of Japan. The projected casualties were almost unspeakable.

You were not there, facing almost certain death from a still heavily armed and very motivated enemy, determined to carry the war on despite the cost.

You were not there, preparing to land on the beaches.

But my Father was.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

"You were not there, preparing to land on the beaches.

But my Father was. "

Mr. O´Connell;

I understand your comment as saying; "you are not entitled to criticize the decisions made there and then, because you were not there."

This is a widespread attitude. It is an argument that is commonly made. It is also an argument that is totally invalid. In fact it is as morally wrong as any argument can be. It is a prime example of the moral relativism, I so strongly condemned.

If you judge history from the perspective of those who were there, "the perpetrators", you will always find that they had their reasons for what the did, and if you surrender your judgment to them, you will have to end up accepting what they did.

If you haven´t read it already, I strongly recommend to you the autobiography of Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz. You should examine the structure of his rationalization, and compare it to the case made in defence of dropping the atomic bomb.

We study history in order to judge.

If not, it is just a hobby, comparable to stamp collection. Harmless pasttime, but of no consequence.

This is mainly a "philatelic website". When serious issues emerge, they tend to be so sensitive that they are quickly shut down, in order not to disturb the "stamp collectors."

There is however a strong undercurrent, especially among the younger users; Adoration of the efficient killer as a hero. (The adulation of Ace-dom). This is confusion of techné and areté. Skill and Virtue, to use the most common translations. "Heroism", of the skillful killer, is a technical attribute, and has no connection to the "justness" of the cause this "hero" fights for. It is therefore a-moral.

This is a problem that seems, from the outside, to be thoroughly confused in modern American culture, so I am not surprised at the stand adobted by you and Mr. DeZeng.

Birgir Thorisson.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

[quote=Birgir Thorisson;99259
Mr. O´Connell;

I understand your comment as saying; "you are not entitled to criticize the decisions made there and then, because you were not there." ... It is a prime example of the moral relativism, I so strongly condemned.

If you judge history from the perspective of those who were there, "the perpetrators", you will always find that they had their reasons for what the did, and if you surrender your judgment to them, you will have to end up accepting what they did ...

This is mainly a "philatelic website". When serious issues emerge, they tend to be so sensitive that they are quickly shut down, in order not to disturb the "stamp collectors."

Birgir Thorisson.[/QUOTE]

No, what I understand Dan to have said is that he recognises — rather better than you perhaps — that the people there at the time faced making decisions in circumstances that we can barely begin to comprehend.

I would add that their having faced those things has meant that we of later Western (and Japanese) generations have mostly been spared anything remotely similar. I note that you made no suggestion as to how the war might otherwise have been brought "morally" to a close — more conventional (and similarly devastating) bombing, invasion, leaving the Soviets to fight Japan in Manchuria, containment so the Japanese population could slowly starve … what? What happened to the people of China or Indonesia meanwhile? To quote a French general of the Great War, "whatever you do, you lose a lot of people."

Dan made a perfectly sound point that the "perpetrator" in the Pacific War was Imperial Japan, the aggressor in China — 10 years before Pearl Harbor — and throughout SE Asia as well as against the USA. Imperial Japan behaved with appalling savagery by the standards of the time, let alone now. I am not at all surprised that those on the receiving end were determined to put a definitive end to it.

It has not been my experience that serious discussions are shut down here — and I speak as a politics graduate rather than a philatelist. What the moderators tend to shut down are slanging matches between intransigent antagonists.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Nick Beale;

[quote=Nick Beale;99273]No, what I understand Dan to have said is that he recognises — rather better than you perhaps — that the people there at the time faced making decisions in circumstances that we can barely begin to comprehend.

Wrong: If you grant that point, you have to conclude that history is incomprehensible to non-participants. This particular instance is no different from all other conditions of history. If we are not entitled to analyse, and judge this decision, then what can be studied? And then; what is the point of "doing history"?
And turning your reasoning on your head: Your parents were not vapourized at Hiroshima. So what qualifies you to have an opinion on that?

I would add that their having faced those things has meant that we of later Western (and Japanese) generations have mostly been spared anything remotely similar.

I assume that you are referring to the non-use of nuclear weapons since then. This is fiat; A statement of fact, but no argument behind it, just your faith. Our worldview is full of such pre-conceived notions that we have never put to serious scrutiny. (But this is a point that should not be argued here. It is a diversion into a "what if" situations that can be argued ad neuseam.)

I note that you made no suggestion as to how the war might otherwise have been brought "morally" to a close — more conventional (and similarly devastating) bombing, invasion, leaving the Soviets to fight Japan in Manchuria, containment so the Japanese population could slowly starve … what? What happened to the people of China or Indonesia meanwhile? To quote a French general of the Great War, "whatever you do, you lose a lot of people."

You should notice that I haven´t said anything about the decision to drop the bomb, for or against it, so no point in trying to argue against something, that is not being discussed. What I am condemning is the reasoning provided by messieurs DeZeng and O´Connell, which to me looks like bullying "eslima" and "Oaktree" to leave the field.
I am not particularly interested in the question, but from what I have read, crucial "facts" are disputed, and the case both for and against is beyond solution, because the grounds for argument are incommeasurable.
You are left with value judgements, which are based on different assessment of what the situation "really was".
The defenders of the use of the Atomic bomb have however resorted to wrapping themselves in the flag, trying to smear their critics as unpatriotic. I have read tons of comments; like you weren´t there, you ove these GI´s your freedom, etc.

Patriotism is itself a victim of ww2. Hoess and co, (mentioned earlier), strong believers in the motto "my country, right or wrong", (although at least Hoess did not waver in his professed faith in his country´s "right" to commit genocide), were hanged because they lost. I will argue with anyone, ad nauseam, that they should have been hanged because they were WRONG, irrespective of the conditions of the time.


Dan made a perfectly sound point that the "perpetrator" in the Pacific War was Imperial Japan, the aggressor in China — 10 years before Pearl Harbor — and throughout SE Asia as well as against the USA. Imperial Japan behaved with appalling savagery by the standards of the time, let alone now. I am not at all surprised that those on the receiving end were determined to put a definitive end to it.

I count 8 statements of fact in the above paragraph. I have seen 7 of them challenged, or denied. I am not interested in playing devil´s advocate and argue them, but history is far more complex than the first draft suggests, and the victors always write the first draft. You must be aware that a totally different manuscript has been under construction in Japan for 140 years. And how can you be certain about which version of the truth will be held in higher regard, 500 or 1000 years from now?



Birgir Thorisson.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Thank you Nick, that is exactly what I was saying.

I guess I should not be surprised that some, 60 years later, and in relative comfort and safety, can condemn what was literally a decision to save lives. The lives of young American service men.

We personally weren't there after being attacked and three and a half years of some of the most barbaric war experienced in the 20th century. We personally didn't experience the almost unbelievable blood baths, and make no mistake about it, blood baths, in trying to stop a fanatical enemy, who showed no signs of quitting. Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Tarawa, are just a few that come to mind.

We personally were not there, after being drafted and taken from our farm or CCC camp, or peaceful life, to be thrust into year after year of fighting an agressor who would stop at nothing to kill you, nor did we read the growing and horrific casualty lists day after day after day.

We personally were not there, knowing the commitment of a very determined enemy who was still very heavily armed, and willing to defend the home islands with a ferocity known only by those who had survived previous encounters.

I have spoken to many WW2 veterans who found it sad that the bomb had to be dropped, but ALL agreed that it most likely saved their lives. But all knew the Japanese were NOT going to quit. The bomb convinced them other wise.

I make no apologies for a decision that ended one of the most brutal conflicts in history. And let me emphasis that, ENDED. And saved many American, AND Japanese lives. The casualties would have been far worse in an invasion of the home islands.

We can not go back in time and change events. However, we can see that today Japan is one of the most peaceful and prosperous countries on the planet.

Let us hope we never see such times when decisions like that need to be made again.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Dan O´Connell.

Are you illiterate? You certainly do not read my posts.

You are basically saying; you weren´t there, so you cannot offer a judgement on it.
You have to accept the stated reasons of those who where there. Well, you weren´t in Auschwitz. According to your standards, that deprives you the right to condemn what was done there.

I simply cannot fathom how people can be so blind, not to see abyss they (you in this case) are so desperately trying to jump into.

PS You are of course of the opinion that, if you have to choose, a japanese child should die, rather than an young US GI, right?

PPS "quote; But all knew the Japanese were NOT going to quit. The bomb convinced them other wise.". Are you unaware of the tons of ink that has been spent on arguing just this point? What gives you the right to condemn all those who have questioned the logic of what you take for granted, as comfortable monday-night quarterbacks, as morally inferior people, secondguessing the "real" people who were there? You are not a god. Your truth is not automatically THE truth. You are a partizan, arguing a partizan point of view.
I don´t have a substantive point on it, (neither for or against the use of the bomb.) This is one of the many, many things, interesting, but unresolved questions of history, that I am not willing to spend more time on. What I object is the smug and arrogant standpoint you adobt, which leads you to a totally indefensible approach to the study of history. You try to hide behind "people who were there", as if that is some kind of a moral high ground, a fast track to the truth.

Birgir Thorisson.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Yup, I'm just a dumb hick, I can hardly read or write, let alone type, so I defer to your superior and vastly greater knowledge of the world in the early 1940's.

It's pointless for me to attempt to communicate with someone who already has all the answers, I wish I was as smart as you are.

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

Mr. O'Connell.

You remarks are probably meant to be sarcastic, but they are surprisingly perceptive.

Education is what is left, when you have forgotten everything you learned.

The key to knowledge, is to accept how little you actually know, and how contingent all the supposed facts are, that you think you know.

Usually, debates like this get bogged down in arguments about ever narrower field of facts/counterfacts, with growing irritation, (and I confess that my last post was written in a mood of no little irritation), leading to namecalling, etc.

This issue has obviously totally different meaning for you than me. For me, it is trivial, peripheral, and synchronic issue. WW2 is as far (or near) as Ceasar´s Gallic war. To you, WW2 is the present.

Birgir Thorisson

Re: "One Plane, One Bomb, One City"
 

OK, I am shuting this thread down as it has drifted far from any meaningful discussion.