Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hi guys

Details required please regarding the following:

15 November: Ju52 (5729) shot down by AA Sola (6 killed)

18 November He59 (1849) shot down by AA (4 killed)

Cheers
Brian

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Evening Brian

Both are mentioned in Foreman's BoB the forgotten months, Nov-Dec 1940
However the He 59 is listed under WNr 1844. How sure are you about WNr 1849??

If you lack what it says (not much) give me shout, OK? :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hi Stig

Thanks for that. I didn't realise Jack had recorded these losses. Any detail on casualties?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

BoB states: He 59 WNr 1844 D5+KD of SNFlKdo 5. crashed at Aalborg/List. Fw Franz Wrobel and crew killed.

I have the Skz as DS+KD (as does the LEMB database) and no Vkz.

Further to this I have the crew as:
Fw Wilhelm Struck (F)
Fw Franz Wrobel (B) - as far as I'm aware the only body recovered
Uffz Alfred Scherff (Bf)
Fw Erhard Süssmann (Bm)

An SOS signal was received that read "SOS we really need help. We are leaving the aircraft"

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hi Members

I tought D5+ was used by NJG 3

cheers

Peter van Gogh

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Thanks Adam & Peter

Another gap filled in my research.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Just came back from holidays and I can add the following about the He 59:

He 59D W.Nr. 1844 St.Kz. DS+HD Shot down by Beaufighters from No. 22 Sq. RAF while in transit from Aalborg to List. I have 17.11.40 as loss date.
On December 9, 1940, the plane was caught by a fishing net and brought ashore. Nothing was found about the crew. The plane belonged to Seenotflugkdo. 5.

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Brian according to Luft QM's returns dated 18-11-40 there is Ju 52 wn 5729 of Transportstaffel See on F shot down Stavanger Sola 15-11-40 while on Transportflug for K.Fl.Gp 406. F Ogef Fritz Rottgen ( umlaut over o) Bm Uffz Eduard Rathje, Bf Gef Wilhelm Herrmann, Bs Uffz Heinrich Osterheld ( umlaut over O) F Uffz Paul Stephan (name ruled out and later note streiche vermisst), Reg Insp Thielke (name added in hand and subject to admendment). All crew noted as missing but it looks like Rathje and Herrmann are changed to dead. Might be worth checking names under the Grave search or under the ' Deutsche Flieger unter dem Nordlicht ' site .
In admendments Fw. Paul Stephan is shown as belonging to I/406 and Insp Thielke as K.Fl.Gp.706 both missing. Uffz Rathje is noted as dead in QM's returns dated 25-11-1942 and Uffz. Herrmann in returns dated 7-6-1942.
Anyone know whether 5729 was a Ju52 Floatplane?

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Many thanks Seaplanes (hope you had a nice holiday!) and Brian

Most interesting - at least I now have additional information.

Seaplanes - why should the He59 loss allegedly shot down by German AA fire now be credited to Beauforts of 22 Squadron? Assuming there was much confusion at the time.

Seaplanes - you may have missed these enquiries:

13 April 1940: BV138 (0150) 9/108 damaged by AA and force-landed Bergen

17 April 1940: BV138 KGzbV.108 damaged by AA and force-landed Sola.


Cheers
Brian

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hi.

The loss of the He 59 listed as follows:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=115200

Doesn't seem to be much confusion as to the loss reason in this record.

The Ju 52 as follows:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=115208

Please note the number of corrections and amendments regarding this loss!

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hi Andreas

I have sent you a PM

Cheers
Brian

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Seaplanes et All

Just as Brian says No 22Sq was equipped with Beauforts during their raid, but they were escorted by Blenheim IVf from 235Sq. Since Foreman says S/L Clarke and P/O Goddard made the claim, I assume this is the comanding officer of 22 Sq at the time. He is listed as a W/C in my sources but it could very well be a later promotion while still in command.
However Foreman lists the action as taking place on the 18th....

Foreman also states that on the 18th AA-gunners from HMS Lowestoft also claimed shooting down a Heinkel Seaplane.

That means, unless Foreman is out on a complete bike ride, we have two claims on the 18th by the British with no loss from the Germans, while we have one German loss on the 17th without any claims from any British source.... Since the Germans at least say it was enemy fire which destroyed the Heinkel we most certainly are talking about he same fight, but which side has bungled up the date?? :rolleyes:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hello,

I would like to restart this discussion to try to find if the He 59D Wnr 1844 was lost on the 17th or 18th of November 1939.

The German loss list gives 17th, the Foreman book 18th.

I think the answer may be in other documents, and if someone can check the ORB of 22 or 235 Squadrons it can help. I also know that some people here have access to various German KTB concerning this area, and would be interested to know if they have something about this loss.

Thanks in advance

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Nothing for 17 Nov 40 (you say 39 in previous?!) but on 18 Nov 40 Blenheims Y & Z of 235 Sqn and Beaufort X of 22 Sqn intercepted 2 He 115s off the Dutch coast damaging one at 0915 hrs and then 3 Blenheims from 235 Sqn shot down a Do 18 off the Danish coast at 1155 hrs

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

The date is 17-11-1940. Last radio contact was at 1610 hours.

Junker

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

Hi,

the last radio contact with He 59 was on 17.11.40 at 16.20 hrs. No mention that it was under enemy attack.
Ju 52 had been lost on 15.11.40 en route from Stavanger to Rantum. At 15.15 hrs German signal intelligence service picked up a radio message from victorius RAF a/c.

Regards

Robert

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

I can find no CC claim at 1515 hrs for any German ac on 15 Nov 40?

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

It was taken from German documents.

Robert

Re: Ju52 & He59 shot down November 1940
 

The claim for a Heinkel seaplane downed by HMS LOWESTOFT was made at 1755 hrs on 18 Nov 1940 while escorting convoy FN-37 off Hartlepool. A torpedo from a second seaplane was seen to miss the ships of the convoy.