29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hi gents!

Looks like a huge massacre happened.

As for my sourses say:

829 B-17 and B-24 flew to attack targets in Wollesdorf, Wiener Neustadt & Atzgersdorf, Austria, and Poderica in Yugoslavia.

USAAF lost 23 aircrafts (how many bombers & fighters from this - I dont know). Fighters (P-51 and P-38) claimed 60+ enemy aircrafts shot down (again, is direct quantity known?).

Bf 109G-6 pilots from JG 3 claimed 2 B-24.
Bf 109G-6 pilots from JG 27 claimed 10 B-24 & 3 P-51.
Bf 109G-6 pilots from JG 302 claimed 3 B-24
Bf110G-2 pilots from II./ZG 1 claimed 6 B-24 & 3 P-51.

Total: 21 B-24 & 6 P-51.

I dont know the Bf109 losses, but II./ZG1 lost 10 Bf110G-2 (most of them - crew KiA) and not less than 3 - damaged, with injured crew.

So:

What P-51 and P-38 squadrons/groups participated in this raid to escort?

How many Me-110 were claimed by fighter pilots, and how many - by B-17/B-24 gunners?

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

The 1st, 31st, 52nd and 82nd FG of 15th Air Force claimed a total of 36 victories on 29 May 1944. No idea about the bomber gunners.

Known Bf 110 claims:
Capt Samuel J Brown, 307th FS/31st FG: 2 Bf 110
1st Lt Murray D McLaughlin, 309th FS/31st FG: 1 Bf 110
2nd Lt Robert B Dustrube, 309th FS/31st FG: 1 Bf 110

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Thxnkl You very much!

There appears more queries:

How many fighters flew as escort?

What aircraft 31 FG flew - P-51? What actual losses they had?

Only 31FG had Me110 claims?

So, is that mean that only 4 Bf110 were s/d by fighters, and other 6 - by bomber gunners? Also, + 3 damaged aircrafts...

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Just quick answer before going to work. The four claims above are the Bf 110 claims I know but I had only details of half of the 36 claims...

Sorry for the confusion...

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

HI,

According to JG 301/302 book by Reschke,171 fighters made escort flights for 563 bombers (so rest of 829 bombers probably attack targets in Yugoslavia).
I/JG 302 claimed also four B-24 HSS victories and suffered one loss - Bf 109G-6 "red 25" Wk Nr 412400, Uffz Roland Bever, 2./JG 302 KIA.

According to "Air War Europa" by Eric Hammel:
Austria: 15 USAAF heavy bombers attack various targets around Wienner-Neustadt:
104 B-24 attack the Bf-109 assembly plant, totally demolishing all that survived previous attack, and 126 B-24 attack the Bf 109 components factory at Atzgersdorf. Also 300 B-17 and B-24s cause heavy damage at the Wellersdorf Airdrome, but 150 German Air Force fighters attack the bombers , downing five heavy bombers . In all, 18 heavy bombers are lost. In the very heavy fighters engagements attending the bombings attack 31st and 52nd fighter group P-51 pilots down 31 bf 109 and Bf 110, and P-38 escort pilots are credited with two Bf 110 and a Ju 87.

Also 4th FS of 52nd FG claimed 6 Bf 110, 3 Bf 109 and 2 Bf 110 probably.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

THX gents!

And P-51 / P-38's losses?

Also, if possible, I'll be very pleased to got a list for Me110 claims of USAAF pilots. Name, regiment, time and area...

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Pilots of 4th FS/52nd FG claimed 8 Bf 110 as destroyed, 4 as probable and one as damaged. Claims were:
Lt. Hanes 3 kills
Lt Gross 3 kills and one shared probable (with Lt. Larson)
Capt. Tyler 1 kill and one probable
Lt. Smith 1 kill
Lt. Tribbett 1 probable
Lt McCauley 1 probable
Lt. Deckman 1 damaged

Lt. Gross was shot down and baled out near Kirchberg.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Thanks Csaba!

But what directly Kirchberg it was ?

Kirchberg am Wagram, a town in Lower Austria
Kirchberg am Wechsel, a town in Lower Austria
Kirchberg an der Raab, a town in Styria
Kirchberg bei Mattighofen, a town in the district of Braunau, Upper Austria
Kirchberg in Tirol, a town in the Kitzbühel district
Kirchberg ob der Donau, a town in Upper Austria

What Fighter and Bomber Groups flew to Austria on this day?

9 P-51 is listed as lost:

3 from 31 FG
4 from 359 FG
1 from 4 FG
1 from 52 FG

22 B-17 is listed as lost:

1 from 100 BG
2 from 301 BG
3 from 305 BG
1 from 384 BG
1 from 388 BG
2 from 390 BG
1 from 447 BG
3 from 452 BG
1 from 91 BG
2 from 92 BG
4 from 95 BG
1 from 97 BG

36 B-24 is listed as lost:

2 from 98 BG
1 from 801 BG
3 from 492 BG
2 from 487 BG
2 from 485 BG
2 from 484 BG
1 from 467 BG
1 from 466 BG
1 from 465 BG
5 from 464 BG
2 from 449 BG
1 from 445 BG
2 from 44 BG
4 from 392 BG
1 from 389 BG
2 from 376 BG
3 from 34 BG
1 from 11 BG.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hello here you can find some bomber group action reports for 29 May 1944:
http://www.norfield-publishing.com/4...44/29may44.htm
http://www.450thbg.com/real/s2/1944/may.shtml#Top
http://www.461st.org/Missions/May1944.htm

For the details of the fighter losses, you can go there:
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqd...21943_mto.html

Despite the title, it covers losses between 1941 and 1945 for the USAAF groups based in MTO.

Regards
Laurent

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Aha, thx Laurent!

31 FG, P-51:

Brooks, James L, 307FS, 31FG, Claims 1 victory
Brown, Samuel Jesse, 307FS, 31FG, Claims 3 victories (including 1 Me-110)
Daniel, William A, 307FS, 31FG, Claims 2 victories
Dorris, Henry W, 308FS, 31FG, Claims 3.25 victories
Goebel, Robert J, 308FS, 31FG, Claims 1 victory
Greene, Claude E, 308FS, 31FG, Claims 1 victory
Jacobs, James A, 308FS, 31FG, Claims 2 victories
McKean, John A, 308FS, 31FG, Claims 0.25 victory
McLaughlin, Murray D, 309FS, 31FG, Claims 2 victories (including 1 Me-110)
Dustrude, Robert B, 309FS, 31FG, Claims 1 victory (Me-110)
Thompson, Robert D, 309FS, 31FG, Claims 0.25 victory

Lost 2 P-51:
№42-106538, 307FS, Howell, Thomas H Jr - KiA, in area of Wallersdorf, Germany.
№42-103424, 308FS, Mansberger, Ralph - KiA, Plane coded WZ_I. Crashed in area of Winner Neustadt in lower Austria.
№42-106497, 309FS, Leicht, Harold J (Not confirmed), Location, Mi. So. Ille De Porquerolles

4th FS claims were listed by Csaba.

So, only 2 FG claimed victoryes?

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hi Evgeny,

134 P 51s were involved in Weiner Neustadt mission.

Regarding the 31 FG:

the 307th FS claimed 4 Me-109 and 2 Me-110 @ 9:45 W of Wallersdorf airfield for the loss of 2/Lt. Thomas Howell last seen in combat with Me-109s and the P 51 of Capt. Samuel Brown who was shot up and was forced to bail out near his base;

the 308th FS claimed 6 Me-109 and 1 Me-110 @ 9:45 W of Wallersdorf airfield for no loss;

the 309th FS claimed 3 Me-110 @ 10:15 10 m N of Wallersdorf airfield for the loss of 2/Lt. Ralph Mansberger last seen in combat with Me-110s;

another Me-110 was claimed by Lt. Col. Yancey Tarrant @ 9:45 10 m N of Weiner Neustadt.

Regarding the 52 FG:

the 4th FS claimed 3 Me-109 and 6 Me-110 @ 10:05-10:20 35 m W of Weiner Neustadt for the loss of 1/Lt. Charles Gross shot down by Me-110s;

the 5th FS claimed 4 Me-109 and 1 He-111 @ 10:05-10:10 W of Weiner Neustadt for the loss of 2/Lt. Henry Woods who died wen his P 51 collided with the He-111.


Other 2 Me 110 were claimed in Austria by P 38s of 94th FS - 1 FG @ 11:10 at Atzgersdorf but I dont know if they were involved in the same mission of P 51s.


Best regards
Marco

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Thank You very much for reply!

1. Uffz. Heinz Robatowski, bortfunker of Uffz. Christian Böhme from 5./ZG 1, claimed P-51 at 10.05 in EM 5: 6.500 m. [Rohr i. Gebirge]. Theyr Bf110G-2 2N+TN W.Nr. 5512 was engaged by P-51, and following fight pilot Uffz. Böhme killed, Uffz. Robatowski wounded and bailed out.

2. Uffz. Urban from 6./ZG1 claimed P-51 at 10.14 in DM-8: 6.000 m. [S.E. St. Pölten]

3. Obfhr. Hartmann claimed from 4./ZG1 claimed B-24 at 10.13 and then P-51 at 10.25 in DM-6: 5.000 m. [30 km. W. Wien];

As for me, I suppose 1/Lt. Charles Gross was damaged/shot up following an attack on 3rd Bf110, wich was 2N+TN. And Robatowski was that who bring Gros down (as Robatowski was expirienced gunner, shot up P-40 close to Sevastopol on 6 may 1944).

Was Capt. Samuel Brown damaged by Bf110? If yes, together with 2/Lt. Ralph Mansberger they were victims of Uffz. Urban and Obfhr. Hartmann ...

Anyway, this fight cost much for II./ZG1:
10 pilots were killed, more 2 were injured...
7 bortfunkers were killed, more 5 - injured...

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Found a list of bomber Groups of 15 AF.

5th Bomb Wing (B-17 "Flying Fortress"), Foggia
2nd Bomb Group; Amendola
97th Bomb Group; Amendola lost 1 B-17
99th Bomb Group; Tortorella Airfield
301st Bomb Group; Lucera lost 2 B-17
463rd Bomb Group; Celone Airfield
483rd Bomb Group; Sterparone Airfield

47th Bomb Wing (B-24 "Liberator"), Manduria
98th Bomb Group; Lecce, Italien lost 2 B-24
376th Bomb Group; San Pancrazio lost 2 B-24
449th Bomb Group; Grottaglie lost 2 B-24
450th Bomb Group; Manduria

49th Bomb Wing (B-24 "Liberator"), Incornata
451tst Bomb Group; Castellucio Airfield
461st Bomb Group; Torretto Airfield
484th Bomb Group; Torretto Airfield lost 2 B-24

55th Bomb Wing (B-24 "Liberator"), Spinazzola
460th Bomb Group; Spinazzola
464th Bomb Group; Pantanella Airfield lost 5 B-24
465th Bomb Group; Pantanella Airfield lost 1 B-24
485th Bomb Group; Venosa lost 2 B-24

304th Bomb Wing (B-24 "Liberator"), Cerignola
454th Bomb Group; San Giovanni
455th Bomb Group; San Giovanni
456th Bomb Group; Stornara
459th Bomb Group; Giulia Airfield

Ok, this gives us final losses of bombers of 15 AF in this raid:
16 B-24 lost (German fighters claimed 21 B-24 + 6 B-24 HSS), together with 2 lost P-51 it gives us final score to 18 USAAF a/c lost, as was noted in one of posts above.

3 B-17 lost, but it seems they were in other raid.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hi Evgeny,

sorry, I don't know who damaged the P 51 of Capt. Samuel Brown. I can only say that he claimed 2 Me-110 and 1 Me-109, so he was in combat with both.

Do you know if the 3 Me-110 damaged of II./ZG1 crash-landed somewhere or retured to base and the degree of their damage?

Thanks.

Best regards
Marco

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hi Marco!

Over Kleinzell 2 Bf110 from 6./ZG1 were shot down and one more damaged:
29-05-44, Bf 110 G-2, 2N+SP, 210094, Crew wounded. Casualties as a result of combat mission. No damage state.

Two more Bf110 damaged Bf110's:

29-05-44, Bf 110 G-2, 2N+GN, 5133, Bortfunker wounded on combat mission. Laxenburg. Also no damage state.
29-05-44, Bf 110 G-2, 2N+RN, 5262, Crew wounded. Casualties as a result of combat mission. No damage state. Schwarzau.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hi Evgeny,

thank you for reply.

Apparently only 9 B24 were shot down by german fighters.
Bombers losses:

B17G 42-31857 97BG (340BS) target Wollersdorf - shot down 10:01 off the target by Flak
B17G 42-97580 301BG (353BS) target Wollersdorf - en route to target engine caught fire and crashed @ 8:49 NE Lubjana
B17F 42-30347 301BG (419BS) target Wollersdorf - before reaching the target flame appared from 1engine. Left formation @ 9:25 S Lunz
B24H 41-28797 485BG (829BS) target Atzgersdorf - damaged by Flak @ 10:40 off the target, crashed @ 12:30 near Zara
B24H 42-52676 485BG (831BS) target Atzgersdorf - a minute after dropped bombs was struck by Flak @ 10:48 N Nageck
B24H 42-52677 484BG (827BS) target Wiener Neustadt - hit by Flak just after bombs away over the target @ 10:33, left the formation
B24H 41-28780 484BG (824BS) target Wiener Neustadt - hit by Flak over the target @ 10:30
B24D 42-41176 376BG (513BS) target Wiener Neustadt - shot down a few minutes before the target by Me-109s @ 10:05 Altenmarkt
B24H 42-95338 376BG (515BS) target Wiener Neustadt - shot down by Flak @ 10:04 N Wiener Neustadt
B24J 42-73416 98BG (344BS) target Wiener Neustadt - shot down @ 10:05 over the target area by Fighters
B24H 41-28825 98BG (415BS) target Wiener Neustadt - shot down @ 10:05 NW Wiener Neustadt by a rocket fired by JU88s
B24H 42-52117 449BG (719BS) target Wiener Neustadt - attacked by Fighters just before reaching the IP @ 9:57
B24H 42-52396 449BG (717BS) target Wiener Neustadt - attacked by 3/5 Me 110s before bombing run @ 10:08 NW Wiener Neustadt
B24H 42-52589 465BG (783BS) target Liesing - hit by Flak @ 10:31 Liesing. left the formation
B24H 42-95336 464BG (779BS) target Atzgersdorf - shot down by Flak @ 10:30 over the target. Last seen near Baden
B24H 41-28969 464BG (776BS) target Atzgersdorf - damaged by Flak, shot down by Fighters @ 12:00 S Graas
B24H 41-28748 464BG (777BS) target Atzgersdorf - shot down by Fighters near Sopron
B24G 42-78257 464BG (777BS) target Atzgersdorf - shot down by Me-109s @ 11:45 near Sopron
B24H 42-52540 464BG (776BS) target Atzgersdorf - crippled by Flak, shot down by Fighters @ 11:52 Jelasinovci

I think that the JG3 claims were against the Eighth Air Force.
But II./JG77 claimed 11 B24 & 1 B24 e.V. @ 11:42-12:20 over the Balkans, probably against the 464BG.

Hope this helps.
Best regards

Marco

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

IMHO some of bombers with were described as shot down by Flak, were also atacked and claimed by fighter pilots, even after all on board balling out. Of course I'm not saying that it happen in this particular air battle.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Which unit would be flying the Ju 88s that were using rockets this day? I know that experiments with cannon on Ju 88s were done. Maybe the rockets fired were from Bf 110s.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

THX for replyes, gents!

Nokose - as far as I know, all Bf110G-2's of II./ZG1 were armed with W.Gr.21. And a main task was to split the formation. Only after that fighters and zerstorers could start theyr attack with board weapons.

Expiriments with Ju88 and high caliber cannons were on Ostfront, as a panzerjager aircraft.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

These "Ju 88" could be Me 410, which were armed with W.Gr 21 launchers.

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Hi all!

But II./ZG26 operated to N from that raid, against 8 AF. Isnt it?

Re: 29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help.
 

Yes it is, but it could be Me 410 from ZG 76, which were not combat ready yet and no claims for this unit are available, but who knows... Of course also propable is that this plane could be also Me 110, but almost certainly not Ju 88.

According to IV/JG 3 book by Mr. Prien Luftwaffe losses for 29 may 1944 are 45 KIA and 18 WIA, including 22 KIA and 10 WIA against 8th USAAF.