Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hi guys

I am seeking the serial numbers of the following Spitfires, all 253 Squadron aircraft(possibly including Vs, VIIIs and IXs):

Lost 3/8/43 (Stirling)
Lost 19/5/44 (Whittaker)
Lost 27/5/44 (Tufnell)
Lost 16/6/44 (Dear)
Lost 28/10/44 (Wilson)
Lost 31/10/44 (Sullivan)
Lost 12/4/45 (Gray)

I could not find any of these in the ORB.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello Brian,

The Spitfire's proved to be a little more dificult.
This is all I could find so far.

Lost 3/8/43 (Stirling) - nil

Lost 19/5/44 (Whittaker)
MA862 - Dived into ground near Pupnat, Yugoslavia, cause not known.

Lost 27/5/44 (Tufnell)
JL367 - Lost 28.5.44; NFD (note one day difference).

Lost 16/6/44 (Dear)
JK279 - Hit by flack and bellylanded 5 miles West of St: Majdan.

Lost 28/10/44 (Wilson) - nil

Lost 31/10/44 (Sullivan) - nil

Lost 12/4/45 (Gray)
MA581 - Missing from attack on MT near Zepce.

Sorry it took a little longer this time :)

All for now
Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

JL367 should be the a/c lost on the following day in the same area. It might be JK 941, Tufnell was at the control of the same a/c a day before on the last patrol from Foggia, it doesn't show on ORB for the next few days. Air Britain has it listed lost on the same day, although under USAAF (sic!).

Is it actually P/O Melville?

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Some have dates that are close.

JK728 http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p052.htm

JL304 http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p053.htm

JL367 http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p053.htm

MA581 http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p058.htm

MA862 http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p059.htm

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello,

For todays update::)

Hi Schenck,
JL367 should be the a/c lost on the following day in the same area. It might be JK 941, Tufnell was at the control of the same a/c a day before on the last patrol from Foggia, it doesn't show on ORB for the next few days. Air Britain has it listed lost on the same day, although under USAAF (sic!).

My copy of AB, JA100 to JZ999 only has
JL367 - 253 Lost 28.5.44; NFD

So I do not know where the AB you quote has it lost the same day or where the USAAF comes in at all here. She is NOT listed as a USAAF a/c in "Spitfire International" either.

Sorry, Schenk, I missunderstood you, - you are speaking about JK941, Yes I see the date is the same, 27.5.44 Lost NFD, and USAAF.
You are saying that it could be this a/c and not JL367 ?
I would not disagree with that. Except that "Spitfire International" has her as
Spitfire F.Vc/Trop (Merlin 50) TOC/RAF 14.2.43; NWA 31.5.43; us 12th AF 1.10.43; crashed Cat. FB/3 27.5.44, SOC.
So it loks like she was with the USAAC when she crashed.

And

Lost 16/6/44 (Dear)
JK279 - Hit by flack and bellylanded 5 miles West of St: Majdan.

I take it that P/O. Melville was the pilot of this a/c when she was lost which leaves us with another a/c to find for Dear ?

All that done,
Good day Brian,:)

I looked and found that JK728 is recorded as FTR ops 28-10-44 in the spitfire.ukf.net production list.
BUT
In the JA100 to JZ999 it has
JK728 - 111/93/253/94 - To REAF 22.2.45
This suggests that she was with 94 sqdn when lost.
This also "Spitfire international", as follows
JK728 - Spitfire F.Vc/Trop(Merlin 46); TOC/RAF 26.2.43, to REAF 22.2.45; No.2 Sqn 2.45; Possibly to No. 6 Sqn 5.46.

It is possible that JK728 was found, and salved perhaps during or even after the war, then repaired before going on to the REAF, a bit of coflicting data with this one it seems. I ask where the spitfire.ukf.net got the new data re her loss on 28.10.44 from ?

Anyway glad to have helped and that others have now joined in the search.

All for now
Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello Brian,

"Spitfire the history" editions 1 and 2 do not differ in content with regard to the following serial numbers.
JK279; JK728;JK941;JL304;JL367;MA581 and MA862.

JK279
Vc(T) M45 38MU 29-1-43, 47MU 13-2, Isipan 5-3, Tak 2-4, NA 30-11, C3 ops 16-6-44. Schenck gives us P/O. Melville as the pilot of this a/c on this date . Did Melville Evade or become a POW or did he return safe to his Unit ?
So it looks like we must seek out another 253 Squadron a/c loss on this date for pilot Dear.
An E.A.Dear became a POW is this him ?

JK728
45MU 26-2-43, 215MU 11-3, SS670 24-3, Gib 12-4, Malta Sic 1-8, NA 30-11, 253S FTR ops 28-10-44, cancel REAF 22-2-45.
(Question: Is the "cancell" for the forgoing "FTR ops 28-10-44" or the following " REAF 22-2-45" ? see earlier post above on REAF service of JK728 in "Spitfire International"

JK941
Vc(T) M50 12MU 14-3-43, 215MU 21-3, SS679 Casa 25-4, NWA 31-5, USAAF 1-10, C3 ops 21-5-44.

JL304
M50 12MU 7-5-43, 215MU 18-5, SS703 1-6, Casa 15-6, NWA 31-6, FAF 1-10, 253S 29-2-44 FTR 24-10.

JL367
M50 39MU 13-4-43, 47MU 19-4, Liber 5-5, Tak 29-5, ME 19-6, NAAF 1-11, 253S C3 ops 28-5-44.

MA581
9MU 20-6-43, 222MU 1-7, Fort Nak 14-7, Casa 29-7, ME 1-9, NAAF 1-11, FTR ops 12-4-45.

MA862
M55M 9MU 1-7-43, 130S 23-7, 82MU 16-8, Ger Don 20-8, Casa 10-9, NA 30-11, USAAF 31-1-44, 253S C3 ops 19-5-44.

Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hi Alex, Schrenck and Revi

Thanks for the detective work - very much appreciated.

I understand that Dear was killed in a take-off accident on 16/6/44. Aircraft caught fire and destroyed.

Almost there!!
Cheers
Brian

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

According to Australian sources W/O Kenneth Dear (412922) was killed 16/4 - NOT 16/6!

/John

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

I have Stirling as killed in Hurricane II HV706.

/John

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello John E,

Thanks for detail re a Hurricane. Would explain perhaps why I could not find details on a Spitfire.

From AB HA100-HZ999

HV706 Hurricane Mk.II
253 Sqdn - but it only gives "Crashed in sea 3.8.43; NFD". Does not say where.
Pilots name, the date and a/c loss all seem to be a match.

Thanks John E.

Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello John E,

Re Dear, thanks yes 16th April 44 is given see below .
Kenneth Dear

Service number: 412922
Rank: Warrant Officer [WO]
Unit: 253 Squadron RAF
Service: RAAF
Conflict: 1939-1945
Date of death: 16 April 1944
Place of death: Corsica
Cause of death: Accidental
Source: AWM148 Roll of Honour cards, 1939-1945 War, Air Force

So again we seek another a/c.

Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Sorry guys

My typo re the date of Dear's death - 16 April 1944 it is!


Thanks for all the help.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

I can only presume that the authors of Spitfire Intl. got it wrong. ORB for May '44 clearly shows JK941 was flown on one operational mission on 25/5 and on the following day it did even more flying, having been flown on two missions to Bihac airfield where No 253 took part in an effort to suppress German onslaught against Partisan HQ in Drvar. Secondly, which of USAAF front units did fly Spitfires so late in May '44?

The aircraft lost on 3/8 seems to be MA691, b/o off Elba Island.

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hi Schenck

I understand that the US Spitfires were flown by 62ndFG. Due to a shortage of American pilots, 253 Squadron was asked to use some of their machines.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello Brian,

62nd Fighter Group ?

Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

This a/c was lost off Elba on 3-8-44.

Brian asked about the 3-8-43.

John E gave us Hurricane HV706 for this date.

It does get a bit confusing with so many names, dates and serial numbers .

Perhaps Brian can bring us around to where we are now and what is left to match up.
W/O. Kenneth Dear 16-4-44 and Sullivan 31-10-44 are two.

Alex

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hi Alex and Schrenck

The two 'missing' serial numbers required relate to

16/4/44 DEAR

28/10/44 WILSON (unless JK728 is correct?)

I do really appreciate your time and effort, which will be duly acknowledged.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Spitfire serial numbers required
 

Hello Brian,

Thanks for the confirmation .
So only two to find now.

WE have then
3-8-43 - Stirling - Hurricane - HV706
19-5-44 - Whittaker - Spitfire - MA862
27-5-44 - Tufnell - Spitfire ?
28-5-44 - Theobold - Spitfire - JL367 ?
16-6-44 - Melville - Spitfire - JK279
16-4-44 - Dear - Spitfire ?
28-10-44 - Wilson - Spitfire - JK728 ?
31-10-44 - Sullivan - Spitfire ?
12-4-45 - Gray - Spitfire - MA581

Alex