Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi guys

Regarding the shooting down by the RAF of Red-Crossed marked He59s in early July 1940, we know that D-ASAM and D-ASUO were painted white, but what about D-AGIO lost on 11 July?

Were there any other incidents of German civilian-marked aircraft shot down by the RAF or ground fire?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Brian,

Dont know if you are interested in this one Fw200 Condor D-AHML 'Pomerania' shot down on 27-9-1944 at 2030hrs by a Beaufighter of US 415th NFS. Condor on the Stuttgart to Barcelona run Flg. Kap Limon plus two crew and five passengers killed in crash Dole/Dijon, there was a web Page on this one.
I believe Condor D-ARHW of DLH 'Friesland' was shot down into the sea while on a flight to Sweden on 29-11-44, I have no more details, or if this was an own goal.
I assume both of these were in DLH rather than Luftwaffe markings,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Can't help you with incidents but have you seen this Brian

http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/document-25.html

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YYjw0QK0wE

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

As a reaction to the loss of many Seenotdienst aircraft to RAF fighters and other aircraft, the Führungsstab of Oberkommando der Luftwaffe issued an order on 29.07.1940, that all Seenotdienst aircraft, until then flown with civil registrations and red cross markings, should immediately be armed and painted as normal frontline aircraft. Of course it did take some time before all aircraft received new paint. At the same time the civil registrations were dropped and the aircraft received standard Stammkennzeichen.

Your aircraft that was lost on 11.07.40 was definately white with red cross markings.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Thanks Seaplanes

Next question!! Can anyone provide first names etc of the crews of the three ASR He59s in question:

1/7/40 D-ASAM (Ielsen/Fehske/Stuckman/Philipp) POW

9/7/40 D-ASUO (Maywald/Bartmann/Anders/Schiele) POW

11/7/40 D-AGIO (NCO crew - names unknown) POW??

Thanks in advance
Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hello again Brian,

Everything OK with you?

With regard to the first names I cann add:
FF Uffz Ernst-Otto Nielsen (not Ielsen)
BO Lt Hans-Joachim Fehske
BF Geft Erich Phillip
BM Uffz Struckmann (no first name and last name Struckmann instead of Stuckmann

Much appreciated if anyone can add the Erkennungsmarken (identity numbers) too!

Best wishes,
Hans Nauta

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Brian,

11-7-40 My notes say put down with engine trouble off the Cornish coast crew picked up by second He59. QM's returns has He59 Seenot 1 100% Fighter fire, crew rescued unhurt no names shown.

1-7-40 Uffz Ernst Ielsen, Ltn. Hans Joachim Fehske, Ogef Erich Philipp, Uffz ? Stuckmann,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

I used an account from Fehske in my Luftwaffe Bombers book if this is of interest. There is also photos of the He 59 shot down on 15-16 Aug 40 which was very much still white

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

There are a few more He 59 Seenotaircraft that was lost to enemy fire while in red cross markings:
D-AKAR on 20.07.40
D-ASUC on 28.07.40
D-AROO on 28.07.40
D-AFFK on 15.08.40

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi guys

Many thanks indeed. Now I require names/fates of crews!!!

I am including these losses in Volume I of my friendly fire book, in a miscellaneous section, hence the request.

Did D-AFFK fall to a Hudson or Spitfires? I have seen both mentioned.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Brian,

Mason page 226 describes the shooting down on 11-8-40 of two He 59's of Seenotzentrale Cherbourg by the RAF. The first fell to two Blenheims of 604 Sqd. escorted by Spitfires of 152 Sqd. themslves on an ASR mission, the Heinkel being white with Red crosses. Later for the loss of two Spitfire pilots a second Heinkel was shot down by 610 Sqd. Luftwaffe QM's returns show the loss of these two Heinkels but do not indicate any crew losses.
Apparantly Hpt. Wiggers of I/JG 51 claimed one of the Blenheims as shot down but I could not find a loss for 604 sqd. this day,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi Brian

Good to hear from you. Trust you are well.

The 'Blenheim' claimed by Hptm Wiggers may have been an Anson of 217 Squadron. Perhaps someone will confirm etc.

The He59 shot down by 604 Squadron Blenheims - what was its registration markings?

Regarding the He59 shot down by 610 Squadron - I have no details. Are you able to provide names of the Spitfire pilots etc?

A fascinating subject. Thanks for all the responses.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Brian,

The He 59 that fell to 610 Sqd. was claimed by F/L Edward Smith (according to Mason in the text for 11th Aug. but not shown in the pilot victory list ) who next day was shot down off Dover and baled out into the Channel. He was picked up by an MTB, lucky he did not need the services of the Seenotdienst. Unfortunately at this stage the Luft. QM's returns are very light on aircraft details just giving the type, in this case no mark, code or werk-nummer for the He59,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

D-AFFK fell to a Hudson of 206 Sqn if my memory serves me right-if someone has access to my book they can confirm this

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

I can add the following details:
23.07.1940 He 59N W.Nr. 838 D-AKAR of Seenotflugkdo. 4.
100%. Missing, probably shot down, while on ASR-sortie from Cherbourg.
Fw. Degel, Fw. Luppe, Gefr. Rosenthal and H.Gefr. Filz all reported missing.

28.07.1940 He 59N W.Nr. 1851 D-ASUC of Seenotflugkdo. 3.
100%. Shot down by enemy fighters during an ASR-sortie in the English Channel in pos. 51 degrees 12 mins. north and 10 degrees 40 mins east.
Oblt. Erich Chudziak, Uffz. Ernst Melzer, Uffz. Josef Baumüller and Gefr. Willi Paddags all missing. Uffz. Josef Buess rescued.

28.07.1940 He 59N W.Nr. 1989 D-AROO of Seenotflugkdo. 3.
100%. Shot down by enemy fighters while on an ASR-sortie.
Fw. Niwiadowski (F), Lt.d.R. Helmut Sandgaard (B) and Gefr. Feugel (Bf) all wounded. Gefr. Berg (Bm) and Obgefr. Nüchter both missing.

15.08.1940 He 59E W.Nr. 2606 D-AFFK of Seenotflugkdo. 4.
100% in Pl.Qu. 6997. Forced landing due to fire from a Lockheed Hudson.
Lt.z.See Siegfried Bömer (B) killed. Remaining crew injured.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi Seaplanes

I have in the LEMB stkz list D-AROO as W.Nr.1889.

Regards

Peter van Gogh

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

According to my list the 18-- series of He 59D and E aircraft built by Arado, end with W.Nr. 1858. The next series begin with W.Nr. 19--.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

In respect of D-AFFK, no other crew were injured apart from the BO who was killed; no injuries to the III/KG 26 crew they had picked up earlier, albeit they were slightly unders the influence of alcohol when the Hudson attacked!

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Seaplanes,

I have a query on the SeenotKdo.4 loss w.n. 838, this has been previously published as being lost on 20th July. The entry in the Luftaffe QM's Returns dated 5th August does state 4 crew missing on the 20th July, however there is and admentment note pencilled in for the 25th. Oct. On looking this up it shows '' Ziffer no18 v. 5-8-40 (Seenotflugkdo 4 v. 20-7 ) . Streiche ganz da identisch mit Ziffer 4 v. 24-7 Streiche 4 Vermisste, 1 He59 total '' does this mean the loss date was 24th July or is your date of the 23rd July correct ? I know your information has always been spot on before and the QM's list has frequent errors, also would you have the details of the Seenotflugkdo1 He 59 claimed by 601 Sqd. off Selsey Bill on the 20th July,

Thanks

Brian Bines

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Many thanks guys - what a brilliant response.

Chris: Which III/KG26 crew was aboard D-AFFK when it was attacked? I note several fell on 15 August. I assume they and the survivors of the He59 were rescued by German craft? Any ideas on the Hudson involved?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Oblt Hermann Riedel and his crew from (I think from memory) 8 Staffel. Full story of their being shot down, picked up, shot down again and then picked up 2 days later in a minefield (during which a Do 24 tried to pick them up but crashed on landing in the sea) is in my Luftwaffe Bombers Battle of Britain and was in Flypast a number of years ago. I also have film from Hermann showing the whole thing he managed to use his cine camera the whole time (but not during the attacks)

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

It's correct that Riedel came from 8/III/KG 26. They were finally rescued on the 16. of august and set ashore at 15.00 hours in Borkum. The Bm of Riedels crew suffered a light wound.

Source:
KTB Seenotzentrale (Luft) Nord.

Junker

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Thanks Chris

I have most if not all of your books beside me!! And what a story you put together on Oblt Riedel and his adventures! I wish I had more time to read just a few of the books in my personal library - I buy them, put them on the shelves and ..............!!

I note that the ASR Do24 that picked up the two crews was also white-painted and Red-Cross emblazoned, as were some Do18s I believe. Did any of these come under attack?

Holiday almost over?? We must meet up for that pint one day soon!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Brian: Half way through but still got 3 months to go. After Xmas, off on another operational job (based in UK) so no rest for the wicked! Could murder a pint of good British ale........

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi Chris

I'll probably have a nice cold pint of good English ale tonight - I'll think of you!!! Glug! Glug! Glug!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi Seaplanes

I have as follows:

838 WL-AKAR with Seenotflug-Kdo 1; which suggests it went back to D-AKAR in July 1940

2606 DD+BC with Seenotflug-Kdo 2;

Hope this helps

Regards

Tom Willis

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

HI all,
As an aside and not wanting to divert this thread I just wanted to say I feel Churchill's order on shooting down these type of planes was an overreaction (I am aware of the intelligence gathering in one He-59 pilot's notebook). I am sure that any armed aircraft could 'persuade' a Red cross marked plane (and therefore unarmed) to change it's course or activities without actually shooting it down.
As a doctor and ex-serving Army Medical Officer it is obviously a subject that is a little close to my heart!

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

D-AKAR was WL-AKAR in 1939 but it went back to D-AKAR much earlier than July 1940.

He 59 DD+BC was actually W.Nr. 2600. This Stammkennzeichen has also been misquoted as DD+BG.
W.Nr. 2606 flew as D-AFFK up to its loss on 15.08.40.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Stephen Bungay's book, 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' covers this issue perfectly. Well worth a read, if you can get hold of a copy.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

I can give the following info on the Seenotdienst losses and accidents for July 1940:

01.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 3. He 59 W.Nr. 1994 D-ASAM 100%.
Took off at 04.05 for rescue of crew of He 115C W.Nr. 3242 M2+CL of 3./106 that made a forced landing 30 miles east of Whitby off the English east coast. The last contact with D-ASAM was at 10.46. At 13.30 the plane was considered as lost due to lack of fuel. The crew was:
Uffz. Ernst Otto Nielsen (F) not wounded
Lt. Hans-Joachim Fehske (B) not wounded
Ob.Gefr. Erich Philipp not wounded
Uffz. Stuckmann (Bm) severly wounded
All became POW's. The same was the case of the crew of M2+CL
The date for this accident is also given as 02.07.40, but according to the KTB of Seenotdienst (Luft) Nord for July 1940, it did take place on 01.07.40.

09.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 1. He 59 W.Nr. 1726 D-ASUO 100%.
Forced down on Goodwin Sands off Ramsgate. The aircraft took off from Boulogne to look for a missing Bf 109. Forced down by Pilot Officer J L. Allen a Spitfire of No. 54 Sq. RAF at 08.00 pm.. Aircraft captured damaged.
Fw. G. Maywald POW
Uffz. H. Natmann POW
Uffz. W. Anders POW
Uffz. E. Schiele POW

11.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 1. He 59 W.Nr. 1846 D-AGIO 100%
Shot down in the Channel by an Avro Anson of No. 217 Sq. RAF. Aircraft also reported as hit by a destroyer. Crew rescued.
Also seen crew of four captured as POW’s in their dinghy off the Channel islands.

20.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 4. He 59 W.Nr. 838 D-AKAR 100%.
Abandoned by its crew some 8 km south of Selsey during attempts by F/O Hubbard, P/O Grier and P/O Dulton of No. 601 Sq. RAF to escort the He 59 to the shores.
Crew was apparently Fw. Degel (F), Fw. Luppe (B), Gefr. Rosenthal (Bf) and Hauptgefr. Filz (Bm) all taken as POW's.
This loss is also reported on 23.07.40 in the KTB of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. for July.

25.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 5. He 59 W.Nr. 839 DA+MK. Reporte first as 30 - 60% damaged, but later 100%. Crashed during take-off from Norderney for a transfer flight. No casualties.

28.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 3. He 59 W.Nr. 1989 D-AROO 100%
100% Shot down by enemy fighters during ASR-sortie in the English Channel. Pos. 51° 12’ N, 10° 40’ E. Shot down by Sgt. Robinson of No. 111 Sq. RAF at 3.20 p.m.
Oblt. Erich Chudziak killed
Uffz. Ernst Melzer killed
Uffz. Josef Baumüller killed
Gfr. Willi Paddags killed
Uffz. Josef Buess rescued

28.07.1940 Seenotflugkdo. 3. He 59 W.Nr. 1851 D-ASUC 100%
60% Damaged by fire from enemy fighters during ASR-sortie in English Channel. Landed on the water approx. 16 km west of Boulogne. Aslo reported as 100% accident.
Fw. Niwiadowski (F) wounded
Lt. Helmut Sandgaard (B) wounded
Gfr. Feugel (Bf) wounded
Gfr. Berg (Bm) killed
Obgfr. Nüchter killed

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Seaplanes, thanks for the information

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi Seaplanes (and others)

Of course I second that

Cheers
Brian

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

What was the rational in shooting down these Red Cross marked a/c? I have seen some people state this was a war crime but then they do have a hate on for the British.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

The rational was "they were rescuing Luftwaffe aircrews, who would soon back to air and attack us, so we would do our best to rescue them ourselves and take them POW, but we would shot down any Luftwaffe sea planes come to rescue them even those see plane marked with Red Cross"

Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding also made a similar comment in the battle of Britain: he would strict forbidden RAF to shot any Luftwaffe aircrews who bale out, but he agree that Germans had very right to shoot RAF pilots who baled out from their plane, if some Luftwaffe pilots did commit these action, they shall not be treat as war criminals

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

This is a request for clarification on certain points of detail raised in this thread that I have followed with interest. Currently I have the following SNFKdo losses listed on the dates shown:

July 20, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 1 Heinkel He59. Abandoned by crew 25 miles south of Selsey during rescue mission following attempts by Green Section of No.601 Squadron (F/O T.E. Hubbard, P/O M.D. Doulton, and P/O T. Grier) to shepherd inland 7.20 p.m. Four NCOs baled out and all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.

July 20, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 4 Heinkel He59 (0838). Shot down by P/O J.R. Urwin-Mann of No.238 Squadron during air-sea rescue mission three miles off Cherbourg 3.15 p.m. FF Fw Herbert Degel killed, BO Fw Gustav Luppe, BF Gefr John-Werner Rosenthal, and BM Hptgefr Peter Filz all missing. Aircraft D-AKAR 100% write-off.
The body of Herbert Degel was reported washed ashore in France on August 20.


July 27, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 3 Heinkel He59 (1989). Shot down in the Channel during air-sea rescue mission 10 miles north-east of Dover by Hurricanes of No.615 Squadron (S/L J.R. Kayll, F/O P. Collard, F/O R.D. Pexton, P/O P.H. Hugo, P/O S.J. Madle, and P/O D.H. Hone) 7.00 p.m. FF Oberlt Erich Chudziak, BO Uffz Ernst Mälzer, BM Uffz Josef Baumiller, and BS Gefr Willi Paddags all missing, BF Uffz Josef Bühs rescued wounded. Aircraft D-AROO 100% write-off.


July 28, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 3 Heinkel He59N (1851). Shot down by Sgt J. Robinson of No.111 Squadron during rescue mission and crash-landed on water ten miles west of Boulogne 3.05 p.m. BM Hptgefr Richard Nüchter and BS Gefr Paul Berg both killed, BO Lt Helmut Sandgaard, FF Georg Niwiadomski, and BF Obergefr Ludwig Fengel all rescued wounded. Aircraft D-ASUC 100% write-off.

July 28, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 1 Heinkel He59N. Landed on sea 15 km west of Boulogne to assist crippled He59 (D-ASUC) of SeenotflugKdo.3 and severely damaged in attack by P/O H.M. Ferriss of No.111 Squadron 3.15 p.m. BO Lt Hermann Wählke and BF Fw Gerhard Kahl both rescued wounded, rest of crew rescued unhurt. Aircraft 60% damaged - write-off.

I appreciate that some of this differs significantly from what has gone before & I am anxious to correct any errors in my understanding. So my question is, does anyone hold any contemporary documentation such as KTBs or particularly NVMs that either supports or contradicts this version of events ? If you can assist, by PM or otherwise, then many thanks.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hello Mars,
Enigma intercepts were decrypted that revealed instructions to have He 59 and Do 18 aircraft use their patrols for convoy spotting and tracking. As I understand it, these orders from Berlin were relayed by Luftflotte 3 and it was at this point that the decryption occurred. There were also a number of Enigma messages decoded giving the position and strength of coastal convoys that could only have come from aerial observation, and the only German aircraft in the area had been rescue craft. This tied in with reports from the WAAF listeners in Kent who were tracking the Luftwaffe Seenot flights and suspected the same thing, as the German Rescue aircraft were being sent to areas where there was no known air activity, hence no reason for ASR, and radioing reports of convoys/shipping while in the air.

The British Y service based in Kent listened to radio transmissions of voice and Morse messages. They learned, by meticulous analysis, the meaning of many of the three-letter and four letter codes in German use as well as the voice codes (kirchturm for height etc.). This applies to all of the German services they tuned in to, from the Luftwaffe to the Police. This was the job of the Y service, to listen to and write down the transmissions. If they could not interpret the meaning straight away, they would send the transcript to Cheadle or one of the other stations for decrypting. Y service did not decrypt enigma traffic, in fact very few people in the Y services knew about the Ultra codebreaking success.

At this time, July 1940, there was no D/F (direction finding) apparatus working with the Y service listening posts so while the WAAFs listening to the broadcast may have suspected the He59s were not in an area where a rescue was needed, they couldn’t prove it immediately. It was only possible to put the pieces together by taking the position of the convoy and comparing the radar tracks of shadowing aircraft, recorded at another RAF station away from the listening station, and comparing them to the radio transcripts later. All this took time, so the Enigma intercepts were separate confirmation of what had been heard by the RAF Y operators at Hawkinge, Kent, in July 1940. It caused quite a stir at the time because the role of the He59s and the small Air Sea Rescue surface craft of both sides were respected but the confirmation was via Enigma traffic and was conclusive.

No mention of the intelligence sources was permissible, so other reasons were given.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

A few years ago on a TV programme a former senior Luftwaffe officer gave the German view on the He59 flights. Basically he said the Luftwaffe had enough fast Recon. aircraft without the need to call on the Seenot aircraft. The assembly of a convoy was also noted by general luftwaffe activity at the time, and were hardly invisible as they sailed through the Channel. He also pointed out that the air battles in the early part were often over or near the convoys so that is of where the Seenot. would start their searches and backtrack from the a convoy.
Infantrymen running from an enemy advance even if they have discarded their weapons are still fired on as are tank crews jumping from destroyed tanks. It is quite logical to seek to kill enemy aircrew who otherwise will return to attack ones country although not a choice everyone would make.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Bruce,
Brilliant explanation. Game, set and match on that particular issue.

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Just to show the matter from the point of the Luftwaffe. They were aware that the Red-Cross marked maschines probably did not fall under the Geneva-Convention at the time. But they did try to live up to it by strictly forbidding any form of reporting that did not have anything to do with rescue.
See attached copy from Seenotdienst Nord.

Junker

Re: Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940
 

Hi Junker and others

Any chance of an English translation of the report, please.

Cheers
Brian