19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Good night to all!
I am seeking more details about the 19 and 65 ( as well as other RAF Mustang III equiped Squadrons ) losses on the 20th June 1944.
I do know they clashed with Fw 190s around Caen, claiming a lot. I am trying to match some losses and LW claims ( III/JG 54 and JG 2 ).
Many thanks in advance
Adriano

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Hello Adriano,

From the good book "Fighter Squadron" by Derek Palmer ( a history of 19 Squadron.

On page 276, 20.6.44 Claims = 2 Me109's Destroyed
But on pages 242/3 only Fw190's are mentioned
P/O. F.D. Schofield missing in FB223.

Acording to FCL vol 3 only Schofield's Mustang is recorded for the 20th.
In FCWD vol 4 1 - 19 Sqdn loss for claims of 2 Destroyed and 1 probable and 5 damaged enemy a/c.
Nothing said about 65 Squadron.
Alex

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

From Shores 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol 1


Mustangs of 19 Squadron had set out to bomb marshalling yards at Rambouillet. Before the attack could be made, 16 Fw 190s of III./JG 54 were seen over Dreux and bombs were jettisoned so that the Mustangs could give battle, which they did at 1630. Sqn Ldr W.M.Gilmour claimed one and one damaged, as did four other pilots. However, Pit Off ED.Schofield was shot down, but managed to evade capture. One JG 54 Fw 190 was lost, but the Germans severely overestimated the results which they believed they had achieved, claiming no fewer than eight P-51s shot down! Four of these were claimed by Hptm 'Bully' Lang.

1630hrs 19 Mustang III
FB201 S/L W M Gilmour Destroyed 1 damaged 1
FB113 F/L D P Lamb damaged 2
FB153 P/O E R Davies damaged 1
FB105 F/S T A Carson damaged 2
FB233 P/O F D Scholield damaged 1 shotdown by Fw 190
FB116 F/L B G Collins damaged 1
FB227 F/O P B Plumridge damaged 1

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Alex,
FB223 may be a typo..........
FB223 - 19 Sqn - 27.7.44 - F/Sgt R.D. Howells - OK
FB233 - 19 Sqn - 20.6.44 - P/O F.D. Schofield - s.d. by FW190 near Dreux - Evaded capture.
Regards,
Henk.

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

How many of the P-51s retruned with damage from this dogfight? Just wondering with the overestimation of claims by JG54 of eight P-51's.

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Hello Henk,
Thank you for the light up.

FCL vol 3 has on page 55, FB233.

Derek Palmer's "Fighter Squadron" has on page 243, FB223

AB's FA100-FZ999 has
FB223 - 65 - force landed nr Potigny 27-7-44.
FB233 - 19 - S/d by Fw190s nr Dreux 20-6-44.

So Derek's is a typo error.
we all do them :)
Thanks Henk.
Alex

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Amrit, Alex, Hank and Nokose;
The combats around 16:00hs and 17:00hs are not totally clear to me.
I started my researches about the 20th June 1944 combats with the first claims known to me around 07:10hs.
07:00hs Combats
Apparently Thunderbolts from 78th FG clashed with Bf 109s of I/JG 3 ( and maybe I/JG 5 ) between Roye and Noyon ( Montdidier area to the NNW of Paris ).
LW airmen claimed 4 Thunderbolts and 2 Mustangs. I do have one loss for 78th FG and scattered losses for 352nd FG and 359thFG. MAYBE those machines were from 9th AF - whose losses I can not have access.
09:00hs combats
Between 09:05 and 09:08hs, I/JG 1 Fw 190s claimed 5 Lightnings near ARGENTAN. AGAIN, one can assume they were in combat with 9th AF machines.
16:00hs Combats
III/JG 54 claimed 8 Mustangs for the loss of only one machine of 8 Staffel.
As you pointed out, they probably clashed against 19 Squadron. However, but sides overclaimed, which could be considered "natural" on the circunstances the combat took place...
However, I came over a 65 Squadron claim of a Fw 190 damaged to F/L Basil Gordon Collins ( do not know at which time this combat ocurred ) and a 65 Squadron´s loss: F/Sgt Gordon Ewart Holland ( RAFVR 1473829 ), killed in combat. LATER, researching about F/Sgt Holland, I noticed he is listed as KIA on 29th July 1944! ( I do not know which source is correct then...)
317 Squadron ( Polish ) claimed several Fw 190s around 16:00hs near Arromanches, for the loss of one of their own ( F/Sgt Winski ). There are several Fw 190s of JG 2 lost around Isigny, W of Carentan and two losses near Cherbourg that day...Was 317 Squadron in combat with JG 2?
17:30hs Combats
JG 26 claimed three P-38 Lightnings near Evreux/ Pacy-sur-Eure. Could it have been in combat with 479th FG which lost one Lightning that day? Again, an overclaimed combat?
18:50-19:00hs combats
JG 3 may have been in combat late in this afternoon. Uffz Gunther Engler from 4 Staffel claimed a Mustang near Falaise. However, 4 Staffel lost one of their aces, Uffz Otto Florian near Bernay.

I do have 5 x Bf 109 G-6 losses from JG 2, between Le Mans / over Baron ( near Villers-Bocage ) / Evreux / Neaufles. TO WHOM can we attribute those losses? 9th AF machines?

Finally, I saw that a Bf 109 G-5 from 4(F)/123 was lost on a recon mission probably near Seine Bay. WOULD one of you have the hour of this loss or probable victor?

YOURS
Adriano Baumgartner

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

By the way,
THANKS to both of you for the additional information on 19 Squadron´s losses that day and the serial number and crew names!
Friendly yours,
Adriano

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Shores has Collins being one of the 19 Squadron pilots

FB116 F/L B G Collins damaged 1

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Hello Adriano,

07:00hs Combats
I think I./JG5 and I./JG3 clashed only with P47s of the 78th FG.
The 352nd FG lost a P51 in combat but over Germany.
The 357th FG and the 359th FG each lost a P51 over France but they were shot down by Flak on the evening.
09:00hs combats
I think I./JG1 and II./JG1 were in combat with P38s of the 370th FG.
17 P38s of the 401th FS took off at 7:00 for a recce mission and were attacked @ 8:50 near Nonant Le Pin at 12.000 feet by 14 FW-190s.The Americans claimed 3 FW-190 destroyed for the loss of 2 P38s of 2/Lt. Robert S Rice and 2/Lt. Roger Wainwraight.
16:00hs Combats
I think III./JG54 was in combat only with P51s of 19 Squadron.
17:30hs Combats
I think I./JG26 was in combat with P38s of 370th FG.
33 P38s of 402nd FS and 485th FS took off @ 15:30 for a recce mission. 4 P38s of 485th FS were attacked @ 18:00 near Verneuil, W of Dreux, by 8 FW-190s. The Americans claimed 1 FW-190 destroyed, later reduced to a damaged, for the loss of the P38 of 2/Lt. George R Holloway. The P38 of 1/Lt. Sidney D Radoccia returned to the base but, damaged by AA and by E/A, was scrapped.
The 479th FG lost a P38 in combat but over Germany.
18:50-19:00hs combats
I think 4./JG3 was in combat with P51s of 10th PRG - 15th rcns - who claimed 1 Me-109 destroyed and 1 Me-109 damaged NW of Argentan between 16:50 and 19:45 for no loss.

Best regards

Marco

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

MARCO,
Thanks a lot for your input...
However, how can we explain the JG 2 losses ( Bf 109 ) mostly around 16:00hs near Arromanches ( Isigny, etc..)?
That flight of 4./JG 3 do interest me. HOWEVER, I do notice that there was NO F-6 losses recorded that day ( checked MACRs )...and ONLY a claim submited by Captain John H Hoefker ( 15 RCN ). As far as I know 4th Staffel JG 3 lost two of his pilots on that area/ same time...this is what I am checking out...
Yours
Adriano Baumgartner

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Adriano et al,

Here is what I have for relevant claims and losses that day.

Stephen

Claims

Ninth Air Force;
0629/1127 hrs, Mustangs of 363 Group claimed three Me.190s, one Me.410, two Fw.190s destroyed and three Me.410, four Fw.190s and two Me.109s damaged in the area of combat "Dessau".
0700/1015 hrs, Lightnings of 370 Group claimed five Fw.190s destroyed and two damaged in the are of combat "Nogent".
1325/1603 hrs., Thunderbolts of 371 Group claimed four Me.109s destroyed in the area of combat "Dreux".
1530/1835 hrs., Lightnings of 370 Group claimed two Me.109s destroyed in the area of combat "Trappes/Maintonon/Dreux.

Second T.A.F.
0455/0715 hrs., Spitfires of 331 & 332 Squadrons claimed one Me.109 destroyed in the area of combat "15 miles east of Caen".
1459/1815 hrs., Spitfires of 302, 308, & 317 Squadrons claimed two Fw.190s in the area of combat "off the beach head".
1522/1715 hrs., Mustangs of 19 Squadron claimed two Fw.190s destroyed, one possibly destroyed and five damaged in the area of combat "Prouvais".

Losses

Ninth A.F. - 363 Gp, two Mustangs were either damaged or destroyed; 370 Grp, four Lightnings were either damaged or destroyed.

Second T.A.F. - 302 Squadron, one Spitfire destroyed; 129 Squadron, one Mustang damaged; 19 Squadron, one Mustang destroyed and one damaged; 317 Squadron, appear to have one destroyed, three damaged and maybe one more.

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Thanks STEPHEN for pointing me to the 9th AF losses and claims...certainly this will change my overall picture of that day versus the Luftwaffe losses and claims!
Am in a hurry now...unable to check what I do have, but will post here soon more details...
Yours
Adriano

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

The 78th shot down three Me 109s at Amiens and Montdidier. The rest of the 8th AF Thunderbolts were over Holland/western Germany for Penetration and Withdrawal Support to the strike at Refineries at Stettin, Leipzig, etc. All of the 8th AF Mustangs and Lightnings had their battles from Rugen Is to Poland to Leipzig.

Re: 19 and 65 Squadron´s losses on 20th June 1944
 

Hi Guys

I hope some one can help me in the following task. I noticed on your forum you talk about 65 Squadron and i'm very intrested i how you are coming about the info as my father was in 65 Squadron on Mustangs and was shot down on the 3rd july 1944 near Caen but i have nothing on how well he did in the Squadron, and im researching his R A F coureir and just for your records he became a POW and made it home after the war

Kind Regards

S Dossett