other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Had a few hours to spare so went through the P47 loses that made reference to lakes.

Couple near lake Bracciano, Italy

One in/near Lake Constance
42-75155 P-47D-10-RE
510th FS 405th FG
Codes 2Z-?
Accident on 25/05/45 towards Lake Constance - Pilot : James A. Gilson - aerial collision.

One in Lake Massaciaccoli in Italy.
44-19667
P-47D-28-RE
350th
1° GAvCa
B2
Perdu lors d'un vol d'entraînement le 28/10/44 dans le lac Massaciaccoli (Ita.) - Pilote : Frederico Gustavo dos Santos

One in Lake Garda
44-20987
P-47D-30-RE
57th
65th
"BALLS OUT II"
MACR 14010 - 26/04/45 dans le lac de Garde (Ita.) - Pilote : Truman L. Allen - MIA - Flak

Near Wurmsee (Lake Wurmsee) Germany
44-33058
P-47D-30-RA
368th
397th
D3-?
Crashé le 19/06/45 dans le lac Wurm (All.) - Pilote : Kenneth G. Wenk - Défaillance moteur

Do we think any of these are still in the lake. Some of them are very large and surrounded by mountains.

Only the Brazilian machine seems to have been in the lake but it seems to be shallow so was no doubt recovered after WWII.

Just 'fishing'

regards

MS

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

i can add a P51 lost in Lake Garda in maj 1945, pilot Kenneth Leighton, never found. We are looking about P47 Balls Out, i will post you the results of research

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Maxjvb

Sounds interesting. Keep me informed.

regards

Mark

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Hi Mark,

i did some research concerning the P-47 in the "Wurm lake" today called "Starnberger See", near my hometown. The AC was salvaged,
i have published pictures and the history on my website:

http://www.abtauchen.com/pdf/P47StarnbergerSee.pdf

Specially the story behind the crash is very interesting :-)

There has been another P-47 in the close "Ammersee", but also salvaged.
I wrote an article about for Flugzeug Classic 2009/10:

http://www.flugzeugclassic.de/zeitsc...75&show=seite1

http://www.flugzeugclassic.de/zeitschrift.cfm?heft=432

Regards

Lino

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Forgot another link concerning the P-47 in the "Ammersee":

http://www.u-air.info/www/uair/uair....9?OpenDocument


Regards

Lino

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Hi Lido

Great articles.

Lost recovered and lost again. Shame they did not survive but great to see.

So what about Lake Garda and Lake Constance?

Bit bigger lakes. Know there was a lot of salvage from Lake Constance but have only heard about B17's and Lancaster's that I recall.

Thanks for the links.

regards

mark

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Hi Mark,

Concerning the P-47 in Lake Constance:
I was looking again in my documents. I was in contact some years ago with the head of the leading salvaging company in "our" area of the years 50 to 60. So i was looking again in his picture and documents collection.
They have salvaged about 10 ACs in lake constance these days.

I'm sorry,I found a note: P-47 salvaged near Meersburg, Lake Constance. But unfortunatly i have no picture.

I have no information about a known P-47 wreck or a salvage operation in Lake Garda, but as this lake is "behind the mountains" from my bavarian point of view, i'm not sure about.

Another P-47 was found and salvaged some years ago, a diver i know was participating in the salvage. A small lake in Austria:
http://www.tecserv.org/bergung.htm



Regards

Lino

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Great information guys, thanks for sharing it.

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Lino,

The 'other' one I know lots about - P47D-28-RA 42-29150 K4-S 'Dottie Mae' of 511FS, 405FG, 9AF - lost 8th May 1945.

www.alliedfighters.com

Make very good restoration progress.

regards

Mark

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Absolutely fascinating. Many thanks for the links to the articles.

No doubt there's a few more of these "old girls" to be found at the bottom of alpine lakes.

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Unfortunately there are only a few left to discover.

I'm searching since about 10 years underwater and in archives for missing AC in alpine lakes, but there are several problems:

1. In the years after war, metal scrap became very precious, so most of the known wrecks have been salvaged already these days. There was a succesfull salvaging company in our region. The company was formed by a former Army Pioneer and two former Luftwaffe soldiers. They salvaged almost every known wreck in southern bavaria, austria and switzerland. The scrap price for a B-17 salvaged 1951 from the Barmsee was about 20 000 Deutsche Mark, that should be today equivalent to about 400 000 US Dollars (Comparison based on prices for real estate). I was in contact with one of the salvage divers some years ago. (He died 2009). In his photo collection of salvaged aircrafts, i found almost every AC, i was looking for so long underwater doing severall hundred dives :-(
So i started a second research: Which aircraft have been already salvaged. This was even harder, compared to finding the ones crashed in the lakes, as there are sometimes no documents about a salvage, only the memories of old local people and the salvage divers.

2. Some lakes are very deep, and every spring, rivers bring so much sediment in some alpine lakes, that some wrecks are covered today with up to some meters of silt.

3. Some lakes are private or forbidden to dive because of nature protection.

4. Some AC crashed in the lake with high speed, breaking up in small pieces, so they are very hard to locate.

So finally, i know some AC seem to be still in the lakes and i don't have any information, that they have been salvaged already. But because of point 2, finding them will become very hard and so very expensive. But as i'm not Scrooge McDuck, i advance very slowly.

Regards

Lino

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Is there any further update on this aircraft?

FW-190 A-4 ( 142454 ) Loss date: 04/07/43

Lt. Rudolf Wieprecht 10./JG 2 9 Blue
Known to be in 'lac de Grand Lieu' in France with pilot's body still in aircraft.

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Tony

Last I heard was that the relative of the pilot was not interested in making the request to authorities to have the pilot/aircraft recovered, despite efforts by several people in France who were willing to lobby the local authorities on his behalf....

Dave

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

great Lino, thanks but don't you have an english version of your articles ?

cheers

Gilles

Re: other P47 loses in European lakes
 

Personnally, would love to trawl over Schwerinersee with a 'fishfinder' or something as simple.

There is a MiG-15/17 at the bottom. also Fw190D, Bu131, Yak 9 loses over/in it. Would be good just even to get some scans to work on.

The Fw190D recovered in 1990 was researched as one number/pilot but the one recovered was another! (At least 4 Fw190D's in April/May 45).

No diving or salvage before 1990 we know of.

Same for some of the other 'East' German lakes.

One day.

Mark