1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

According to my data the 1º Gruppo Caccia of the ANR flew 2 missions, 34 Mc 205 sorties, against a 15th Air Force formation targeting Klagenfurt on 19 Mar 44. Does anyone have details (especially claims and losses) for the Italians on this date?

Any help will be appreciated.

Don

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Dear Don,

if you really refer to 19 March, I'm sorry to say that there was no flight and no combat of 1° Gruppo Caccia at all.

There was instead a big combat on the day before (18 March) with about 30+ C.205s involved in several missions both in Udine - Maniago area, whose airfields were attacked by mixed formations of P-47s of 325th FG and P-38s of 1st, 82nd and 14th FG (those attacks caused the loss of two C.205s on the ground and the damage of twelve more); also, on that day the Italian unit was involved in Pola-Casarsa area against B-24s escorted by P-47s.

The combats in Udine area brought to two P-38s claimed by S. Ten. Stella and M.llo Benati against one C.205 shot down with Serg.Magg. Gorrini baled out.

In the Pola-Casarsa mission the unit claimed instead four bombers by Ten. Robetto, M.llo Morosi (who apparently shared the claim with Maj. Steinhoff), Serg.Magg. Rodoz and Svanini, against the loss of a C.205 over Fiume with Serg. Magg. Zaccaria KIA

According to German victory attribution lists however, only the claim of M.llo Benati, taking place at 09.30 hrs 15 km S of Porto Baseleghe (VE) was confirmed for the Italians.

That's all I know. Hope it helps

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Hello Ferdinando --

Thank you very much for the reply -- I wondered why you didn't mention the 19 Mar mission in your Squadron/Signal Reggia Aeronautica Vol. 2!

My source for the 19 Mar 44 mission is the OKL Luftlage Karte from the BA-MA (Kart 44/1661). The March maps don't list the units, which have to be implied, but show as flying under Jafü Oberitalien:

18 Bf 109s (8 Werfer) up from Maniago [this must be I./JG 53]

24 Bf 109s (9 Werfer) up from Lavariano [this must be I./JG 77]

22 + 12 Mc 205s up from Campformido [if not 1º Gruppo Caccia, who?]

AFAIK, the ANR had no other fighter units at this time (not of this size, at any rate), and II./JG 77, which had flown Mc 205s earlier, was back on Bf 109Gs and was on the Anzio front, not in N Italy.

You are the best person I know of to solve this puzzle. I look forward to your next post.

Don

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Dear Don,

you are of course correct in assuming that the Kart 44/1661 reference refers to 1° Gr.C., as they were the only unit equipped with Macchi C.205s and the only one operating from Udine-Campoformido at that time!

At the same time, I can confirm you that on 19 March there is no unit reference to any mission flown.

On the other hand, the split of the C.205s operating in two parts clearly matches up with the development of missions done on 18 March...

Considering all the above (and in the apparent absence to any reference in the Kart 44/1661 to the mission of 18 March), I can only presume that this is a case of a "shifted" report which detailed one day later the mission of the previous day.

The only other option is that, if a "scramble" there was, it was uneventful and thus not reported in any of the known sources or diaries. I have not found any trace of this presumed mission however neither in official sources nor in personal log-books.

Hope this helps.

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Since the official Italian sources and logbooks mention no mission on 19 Mar, I have to accept that none in fact took place. The OKL map does a good job of presenting the case for a mission. My notes say:

22 Mc 205s up from Campformido 12.13 - cE, FB 1st wave SE Klagenfurt
12 Mc 205s up from Campformido 14.45 - course not stated - o.F.

In the summary table attached to the map this number of Italian a/c is included in the number of Jafü Oberitalien a/c to sortie. But if these sortie numbers and times match your data for the 18th, we have convincing evidence that someone in the Jafü or Berlin just stuck the Italian data into the wrong folder. This is very, very disappointing to me, because the OKL maps are some of the most important sources I have for the work I'm doing. But as they say, that's [Luftwaffe] research!

Thanks again for your help,

Don

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Don,

since I am not the owner of the "truth", but only a simple researcher working on surviving data, thus I am not in the position to deny validity to existing documents, but only to formulate guesses trying to understand why of this apparent mistake of OKL sources.

It would be interesting to know if the OKL map for the mission of 18 March is available, in which case we should obviously reformulate our opinions.

My reply assumed that it was implied the non-existence of a "Kart 44/1161" reference to that combat of the 18th. Of course if such report do exist, all should be seen in a different perspective...

In that case, my second scenario could be considered, i.e. that the scramble(s) of the 19th led to no results, and thus remained unaccounted for in Italian documents (or in most of them).

I have only one source reporting an uneventful scramble of 34 C.205s on 19 March, but such source has often proved unreliable on several occasions, so I (perhaphs erroneously) assumed that it was "business as usual"... this could instead be the time it proved true.

However, there are two further things pointing to this hypothesis, namely the detailed report of the target:

...22 Mc 205s up from Campoformido 12.13 - cE, FB 1st wave SE Klagenfurt
12 Mc 205s up from Campformido 14.45 - course not stated - o.F. ...

... the timings (we know that one of the combats of the 18th took place early in the morning, much earlier than the OKL report) and the correspondence of the number of aircraft flying. The fact that the scramble did not result in an interception would confirm the lack of reports about it.

Maybe the truth is in the middle and maybe we have found it... ;)

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Ferdinando --

Gosh, research is fun, isn't it? There IS an OKL map for 18 Mar 44 -- Kart 44/1658. It does not show any activity at all for Jafü Oberitalien. My theory: the 15th AF stream flew up the Adriatic on course for the Reich, thus drawing up the fighter units in N Italy, but then turned and bombed their airfields. Since the 15th AF did not penetrate the Reich, this mission did not find its way onto the OKL map (which I believe was actually prepared by the I. Jagdkorps Stab, which had little interest in Italy).

Since we can't prove a negative, and you say your primary documents are not all that complete, it's impossible to say that 1º Gruppo Caccia did NOT fly on the 19th. It would be easy to say that they did fly, and both of their missions were o.F.B., but IIRC the map shows that the flight path of their first mission merged with that of the two Jagdgruppen, which definitely found the bombers, attacked, scored victories and took casualties.

Perhaps only the track from Campformido to join the Luftwaffe fighters is in error -- one little mistake by a draftsman.

Do you know if the ANR ever penetrated Reich airspace at this stage of the war? Was there a policy against it? If there was, I would be ready to score both of the missions as o.F.B. and blame the draftsman.

Your additional thoughts are welcome.

Don

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Ultra doesn't help much but here's what I've got.

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Thanks, Nick. These messages refer to the raid on 18 March, which was restricted to Italy & stayed out of the Greater German Reich, my area of interest at present. I assume you found no messages referring to the 19th. I've about come to my own conclusion, but am waiting for any late thoughts from Ferdinando.

Don

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Don,

certainly ANR fighters were requested to operate briefly even in Reich airspace, albeit for limited time and pre-arranged missions. There were a few missions also of 2° Gruppo Caccia (these in July 1944), so the reply is affirmative.

Bear also in mind that virtually every move of the ANR had to be authorized by the Luftwaffe even long before "Operation Phönix", so that Italian units were "asked" to do missions, not the contrary.

Thus it is fully acceptable that 1° Gr.C. fighters did fly beyond the border even on 19 March, because ordered to do so. The only certain thing is that no interception ensued. So I guess we have a poor draughtsman to blame... :)

P.S: Your explaination of the lack of reports on 18 March mission looks perfectly clear now. Yes, research is "fun", sometimes with the brackets on, however... ;)

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Thanks again, Ferdinando & Nick. I've concluded that 1º Gruppo Caccia did fly two missions on 19 Mar. The 2nd was o.F.B. The 1st may have resulted in Feindsichtung if not Feindberührung, but the evidence is clear that the unit claimed no victories and suffered no losses.

If any data to the contrary crop up, please let me know.

Horrido!

Don

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

If they were there, then I missed them. Anything ANR-related does get my attention though (a side-effect of knowing Ferdinando for 21 years!) so I would have taken a copy if I'd seen it.

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Hello everybody,

I've been following this tread with great interest. Ferdinando's info is somewhat new to me and thus I need to update my own list accordingly. Therefore, I have a couple of questions.
The pilot which baled out on 18 March, was it Sergente Maggiore Luigi Gorrini?
According to Tony Wood's claim lists on 18 March, the Italian fighters claimed:

09.30 Mario Benati, 3./JGr. Italien P-38 15 km. S. Porto Bareloghe 700-800 m. Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
09.30 Andrea Stella, 1./JGr. Italien P-38 15 km. S. Porto-Barslaghe Refer: Visconti/Arena f. 337
09.30 Guiseppe Marconcini, 1./JGr. Italien P-38 15 km. S. Porto-Barslaghe Refer: Visconti/Arena f. 337
09.30 Guiseppe Robetto, 1./JGr. Italien P-38 N.E. Lubiana Refer: Visconti/Arena f. 337
09.30 Diego Rodoz, 3./JGr. Italien P-38 N.E. Lubiana Refer: Visconti/Arena f. 337
09.30 Pietro Svanini, 3./JGr. Italien P-38 N.E. Lubiana Refer: Visconti/Arena f. 337

Stella and Benati's claims are verified by Ferdinando
Robetto, Rodoz and Svanini are also verified by Ferdinando but as bombers (B-24?), who also has a shared bomber by Morosi.
Marconcini didn't claim anything.
JG 53 and 77 claimed 3 P-47s, 1 P-38 and 17 B-17s
US Fighters seems to have claimed 18/3/5 according to Olynyk. The Ju52 in Nick's document seem to have been claimed by 1/Lt Thomas F. Rafael, 27th FS, at 09:40 at Treviso A/D.

Is this correct?

Also according to Tony's list Squadriglia Autonoma Montefusco made a couple of claims on 19 March:

Giovanni Bonet, JGr. Bonet ½ B-17 6.000 m. Reference: Arena re. Guest
Biagini, JGr. Bonet ½ B-17 6.000 m. Reference: Arena re. Guest
Guiseppe Biron, JGr. Bonet B-17 6.000 m. Reference: Arena re. Guest
Tommaso Jellici, JGr. Bonet B-17 6.000 m. Reference: Arena re. Guest

Are these claims still valid?

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Håkan,
the source of such claims in Tony Wood's list are a couple books of an author whose info have been verified through the years to be at least incorrect in many istances, particularly about attributing claims.

The names and info I supplied are coming directly from an original wartime document typed ans signed by the "Ufficio Voli" of 1° Gruppo and listing all the claims of the unit attributed to individual pilots from 3 January to 2 May 1944. Here is the scan of the relevant part...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/ANR180344_claims.jpg

That out of the seven claims reported by the document for the combat(s) of 18 March, only one was confirmed by the Germans, can be surprising, but for instance the reverse happened on 28 March, when all the nine claims of the Italians were confirmed by the Germans. (This of course doesn't mean that such claims were verified and confirmed, this being a completely different story, as many of us certainly know...)

Also, the Tony Wood's list reports all the claims as taking place at 09.30, which is entirely incorrect, as there were two different combats in completely different areas (Porto Baseleghe and Lubiana are more than 125 kms from each other) and in different timings.

Concerning the claims of Sq. Montefusco I think you should refer to the book of Giancarlo Garello "Centauri su Torino", who did a fantastic work in researching all the claims of the unit.

Hope it helps.

Re: 1º Gruppo Caccia activity - 19 Mar 44
 

Gracie Ferdinando,

As usual you are most helpful to my questions.
Thanks for clearing this out.

Best wishes/Håkan