Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Approximately two years ago the wreckage of a Messerschmitt 110 was recovered at Sercus, France. Local information has it that the loss occurred "immediately prior to" the Germans coming through on the ground. Further, we are told that one was dead in the crash and the other baled out. Evidence (a flying boot) certainly indicated at least one fatality. There was heavy shrapnel damage through the wing spar web that looked like a flak hit or HE cannon impacts. Possibly the latter pointing away from a RAF aerial "kill". One engine was stopped at time of crash - the other running. Suggestions have been made that this was possibly one of the ZG1 losses on 26 May 1940 and this seems a logical possibility. Yesterday, when wreckage was being examined, the Werke Nummer 2889 emerged.

Whilst this helps not a bit in tying the Werke Nummer in to a specific loss, I wonder if there are any forum contributors who can add any more details about 2889?

I should add that Peter Cornwell has identified it as a C-2 and one of a small batch of eight built by Focke-Wulf in Noember 1939. Any additional information would be welcomed!

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hallo !
Is a pilot recognised?
I have 3 losses on that day in France, Clalais area.

Bf 110 C (Gr.T.O) Oblt. Konrad Martin K Fw. Herbert Kraft K
Bf 110 C Ltn. Werner Kleinecke K Uffz. Otto Schamberger W
Bf 110 C Ltn. Georg Wolfle K Ogefr. Martin Hoffmann K

All s/d in combat RAF fighters.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Evgeny.

It is just possibly one of those three, although other possibilities cannot be excluded. I am afraid that we simply have no further information, only that we have now identified the Werke Nummer of the wreck. It would be nice to add in more detail and identify a unit and crew. I suspect this is all a bit of a long shot, and we will probably just be left knowing the W.Nr and nothing else. However.....I'd love to be proved wrong!

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hi Andy!

Very sadly, but I have only fiew W.Nr.'s for all losses of ZG1 in 39-40, just 3 or 4. And almost all the losses are stated as just "Bf110 C" without any specific modifications.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hello Evgeny

A most intruiging question, even my Bf110 File (8508 records) has no answers ! However, Lt. Werner Kleinecke was wounded, not killed and was posted to the I./NJG 1 as Adjudant of its commander Werner Streib late 1941. Kleinecke survived WW-2.

All the best, Marcel

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

This Bf 110 was C-2 model mnufactured in Bremen by Focke Wulf in November 1939. Stammkennzeichen either BO+AD or BQ+AD.

There are two losses that could be the one. One at Calais with
Bf 110 C (Gr.T.O) Oblt. Konrad Martin K who is listed as KIA
and Fw. Herbert Kraft K who is listed as WIA or at Ostende
Bf 110 C Ltn. Georg Wolfle K who is listed as KIA
Ogefr. Martin Hoffmann K who is listed as WIA

Unfortunately not much more.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Did some more checking the code is BO+AD. BQ+AD belongs to a Bücker.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Thank you for the input here Norbert, Marcel and Evegny.

All we know is that at least one crewman died by the evidence of the remains of one Luftwaffe flying boot found in the wreckage. Local information stated that one was killed, the other baled out. However, it is not safe to place absolute reliance on local information - especially after 70 years. In this case, though, it is all we have. We were also told that it happened not long before the Germans came through on the ground and I think that, at least, is pretty reliable information. Evidence in the wreckage of heavy-duty shrapnel damage (at least, damage that was not caused by RAF .303 impacts) was found in the wing spar. That is as much as we have!

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Very interesting thread, gents!

Marcel - do You mean 8000 entries over DAY zerstorer or all built Day and night zerstorer (together with aufklaerer)?

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hello Evgeny,

As I was composing an answer to you about your question about the Bf 110 C-6, after some time it was neccessary to log in and my long answer was gone...

In my Bf 110 database I did store ALL Bf 110's (ZG's / NJG's / Aufkl. units / flying schools, transfer units etc.) I have found so far in the detailed Gen.Qm.Luftwaffe Abt.6 loss records, known production blocks, (reasonably trustful) publications, Flugbücher from Messerschmitt factory pilots etc. etc.

I will try again to present a reconstruction of these alleged 12 Bf110 C-6's:

It seems that the Gothaer Waggon Fabrik (GWF) produced 2 batches of 6 Bf110C-6's:
2148 (KD+TR) : fate unknown
2149 (KD+TS) : fate unknown
2150 (KD+TT) : fate unknown
2151 (KD+TU) : fate unknown
2152 (KD+TV) : 5./SKG 210, 100% on 16.12.1941 (Lw.losses Reel 4)
2153 (KD+TW): 8./ZG 26, 100% on 8.12.1941 (Lw.losses Reel 4)
---------------
2249 (NJ+ZW): 6./ZG 1, 100% on 27.2.1942 (Lw.losses Reel 5)
2250 (NJ+ZX) : Erg.Zerst.Gr. 90% on 10.2.1943 (Lw.losses Reel 8)
2251 (NJ+ZY) : 7./ZG 26, 85% on 28.3.1942 (Lw.losses Reel 5)
(2251 is also reported as a 100% loss with the St.G.77 on the 11.11.1942 but this Bf110 is reported as a D-subtype, therefore the Werkenummer might be wrong)
2252 (NJ+ZZ) : III./ZG 26, 40% damaged on 4.6.1942 (Lw.losses Reel 6)
2253 (BR+PA) : fate unknown
2254 (BR+PB) : 4./SKG 210, 100% on 18.10.1941 (Lw.losses Reel 4)
(2254 is reported in Reel 4 as a Bf110 E-6 but this subtype was never built, it is likely that it should have been noted as a C-6)

As the 1./Erpr.Gr.210 had 3 losses in August 1940 (2 on 11.8.1940 and 1 on 15.8.1940), it is likely that these losses had the Werkenummer of the first batch of six Bf110 C-6's.

Rather unnoticed by most airwar historians, is that my 'I./NJG 1' had 2 Bf110 C-6's on their inventory between (at least) March 1942 up into July 1943 ! After July 1943 these C-6's were transferred to another unit.

Conclusion: assumed that the above entries are correct, we are close to define what became of these 12 Bf110 C-6s during WW-2 and would welcome your thoughts/corrections/additional info !

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis
www.fliegerhorst-venlo.net

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Marcel,

Not necessarily so. Please note the following also:

29/7/40 Bf 110 C-6 2N+RH Returned to base damaged following combat.
Lt. Erich Beudel (P) & Ogefr Heinrich Diemer (Bf).

30/7/40 Bf 110 C-6 Shot down into the North Sea by Allard and Hamilton of 85 Sqdn.
Lt. Hans Herold (P) & Ogefr. Lotar Lilienthal (Bf).

So, if you add these two to the three in August, and also the two from 5./SKG 210 and 8./ZG 26, you will see that it makes more than 6.

Erich Beudel's flugbuch records that he flew the following Bf 110s with 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 in July 1940: 'G', 'N', 'O', 'P', 'R', 'S', & 'T'. All C-6s. I therefore believe they had on charge more than 6 in July 1940.

I also believe the Bf 110 C-6s shown on charge with other units later in the war (apart from SKG 210 & ZG 1) were damaged machines of Erpr. Gr. 210 that went through the usual repair facility and were re-issued to other units. According to Petrick/Mankau, all 12 C-6s were built and issued by July 1940.

Hope this helps.

John V.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Marcel,

Looking at the five 'fate unknown' C-6s in your last post, I think it is safe to assume that four of them were lost by Erprobungsgruppe 210 between 29th July 1940 and 15th August 1940, i.e. one on 30th July; two on 11th August, and one on 15th August.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hello John,

Thank you for your most intruiging and welcome remarks ! The trouble - certainly known to you - is that the Gen.Qm. Abt.6 loss lists for the period up to August/September 1940 are barely readable or do not contain Werkenummer (or both). So I was very pleased when I was able to buy your book 'Zerstörer' some years ago and I did add then a lot of info into my Bf 110 database.

I will carefully compare your comments with what I have written in order to let the dust of all those facts fall down. It will narrow down the number of possible C-6 Werkenummer left for later use in 'my' I./NJG 1 !

Always enjoying your detailed knowledge about these matters, all the best,

Marcel Hogenhuis

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Just reviving this thread, together with photos, in the hope that somebody else might yet have some input on a possible identification of this Battle of France loss. (W.Nr 2889)

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Andy,

How timely is your note above reviving this issue. Yesterday I acquired the photo collection, some medals and the FB of a 1./ZG52 Bf110 BF, Fw Herbert Altmann, who flew with the unit during the Phoney War and Western Campaign. In the FB, Altmann records initially flying a Bf110, W.Nr. 2889, coded A2+LH, on March 22, 1940. There are subsequent entries with that plane code, and pilot's names are recorded.

Has the identification of the crash of this Bf110 advanced since this post was initially made? You mention photos in your recent post, but I didn't see any with the entry. I don't yet have the FB in hand, only scans from some pages, but I should soon have the full FB and be able to provide more info if it would be helpful. Altmann would not have been a crewman at the time of the crash, as I believe that he survived the campaign, but, if still relevant, this should significantly advance the search for the identity of this aircraft.

I also haven't had time to search for a 1./ZG52 crash during the period that you're looking at, but I'm pretty sure you will ID the crash under that unit.

Regards,

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hello,

Since posting the above, I've looked over the EoE Luft loss DB (100% losses to Stab I, I or 1./ZG52 listed below), but didn't find any 1 Staffel losses that are dead on. Item #1 isn't a possibility. I've included two Stab. I./ZG52 losses (items #2 and #4), whose crews could have been flying a 1 Staffel a/c on loan if needed. However, neither of these appear to fit. The best bet is Item #3, but, unfortunately the crew is not identified, nor was either of them killed. Identified only as belonging to I./ZG52. The date is only one day off the date you were considering most likely. I think that this is probably your aircraft. Please note that these entries have been revised since the publication of Peter Cornwell's "The Battle of France: Then and Now."

1) "May 14, 1940: 1./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Starboard engine badly damaged in attacks by Sgt Bouhy of GC II/5 during escort sortie south of Thionville 4.00 p.m. Retired north and abandoned over the ‘Bricherknapp’ near Brouch, in Luxembourg. FF Fw Otto Weckbach baled out badly wounded – admitted to hospital where died May 16, BF Uffz Karl Klaus missing. Aircraft 100% write-off."

A restored engine from this a/c is in a museum in Luxembourg, and the crash site isn't anywhere near Sercus, France.

2) "May 27, 1940: Stab I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais 7.20 p.m. FF Lt Christian-Friedrich von Neumann (Gruppenadjutant) killed, BF Uffz Hermann Laudemann baled out and captured wounded - admitted to hospital in Dunkirk and later released. Aircraft 100% write-off."

If the location is correct, this would have gone down into the channel. The Bf110 is unlikely to have crashed inland as far as Sercus, which is about 40 kms SE of Calais.

3) "May 27, 1940: I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais and abandoned over German-held territory 7.20 p.m. Crew baled out unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Although both crewmen reportedly bailed out unhurt, I think that this is your aircraft. Perhaps one of the crewmen lost a boot in the a/c as he bailed out. So this should be A2+LH, WNr. 2889 of 1./ZG52.

4) "June 4, 1940: Stab I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Crashed at Maizey both engines destroyed in attacks by Lt Huvet, Lt Hebrard, and Sgt Hème of GC II/5 north of Saint-Mihiel 8.10 a.m. FF Oberlt Herbert Ziebarth (Gruppenadjutant) baled out and captured unhurt – later released, BF Uffz Johann Sisterhenn killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."

This isn't anywhere near Sercus, France.

So, over to you for your thoughts.

Regards,

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hello,

Based upon the info presented above, Peter Cornwell has revised our EoE Luft loss DB as follows:

"May 27, 1940: 27 May 1940: I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais and abandoned over German-held territory 7.20 p.m. Crew baled out unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.Add : Possibly the aircraft excavated at Sercus, south-west of Hazebrouck. Werk Nummer ‘2889’ found on wreckage identifying it as on the strength of 1./ZG52 in March 1940 when coded A2+LH."

1) Does anyone have contemporary photos of this crash site at Sercus, France?
2) Can anyone provide further details of the excavation of this crash site "a couple of years ago," including precisely when this site was excavated, who or what organization did it, what they specifically recovered from the site, and where these artifacts are currently displayed or stored? Can anyone provide photos of the excavation and the recovered artifacts?

Regards,

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Larry

I will look up details of the excavation date etc and come back to you. I was present at the 'dig' and can send you details. I can certainly let you have photos of the recovery and artefacts etc.

Several points I would add. I discussed the following with Peter Cornwell earlier today:

We know the W.Nr was 2889.

I am convinced that one crew member died. This was stated by a local witness and the flying boot was corroboration of this in my view.

The same witness stated one man baled out and was captured.

The witness stated it was just before the Germans came through on the ground, and this enabled the farmer to gather up all of the surface wreckage and dump it in his pond - where we later found it. This probably would not have happened if the Germans were already occupying the area.

Clear evidence existed on wing internal structure of a major AA fire hit of quite heavy-ish calibre of 40mm or more, I'd say. The cause of downing could have been this alone, or at least contributory.

A key date is to establish when, exactly, the Germans took that territory and look at 110 losses prior to that date.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Andy,

Thanx for the response. I've contributed what I can for now, so I'll have to leave it up to you and Peter to make the pieces all fit together. Please do send me photos and info on the recovery for the EoE Photo DB.

Regards,

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Images here of the recovered tail unit. This had been dumped in a farmer's pond.

If you look in the background on image three you can see the piece of wing structure. On the right the heavy ordnance hits are visible.

I may have imagined this, but I think I recall a piece of wing-tip that we thought had been painted white.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Larry

I tend to rather favour the von Neumann loss at this stage, and in the absence of any other contender.

Whilst NE of Calais is a bit of a distance (and over the sea) do we know that the loss actually occurred there? Or was it just where the engagement took place?

It is only a theory, but if he had been hit then he may have been trying to get back to German lines and got as far as Sercus. It is possible, maybe, that he had been hit by fighters but was finished off by flak - as per the evidence found on the wreckage.If British and French forces were still on the ground in the area of Sercus then they perhaps picked up the survivor and took him with them to Dunkirk, where all ground forces were then converging?

Only a theory, and there is a danger of making something 'fit' when it could be way off track.

Do we know the last date that 2889 appears in the Flugbuch, Larry?

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Andy,

As far as I know, the German advance went through the Sercus area between 26-28 May 1940 so a tentative date of 27 May for the crash there seems like a good working hypothesis. If we also accept the potential 'hard evidence' of the suspected WNr.2889 and the fact that this can be linked (via the ALTMANN Flugbuch) to I./ZG52 two months earlier then there are four losses to consider on that date. I currently have these documented as follows:

Stab I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais 7.20 p.m. FF Lt Christian-Friedrich von Neumann (Gruppenadjutant) killed, BF Uffz Hermann Laudemann baled out and captured wounded - admitted to hospital in Dunkirk and later released. Aircraft 100% write-off.

I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais and abandoned over German-held territory 7.20 p.m. Crew baled out unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.
Possibly the aircraft excavated at Sercus, south-west of Hazebrouck. Werk Nummer ‘2889’ found on wreckage identifying it as on the strength of 1./ZG52 in March 1940 when coded A2+LH.

2./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons and crashed in the sea off Dunkirk 7.20 p.m. Possibly that claimed by S/L Franks of No. 610 Squadron. FF Lt Gerhard Borrmann and BF Uffz Hans Riebesell killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.
The body of Gerhard Borrmann was washed ashore near Calais on June 8, that of Hans Riebesell coming ashore near La Panne eleven days later.

2./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons off Dunkirk and crashed onto 125 Veurnestraat at De Panne 7.20 p.m. FF Uffz Karl Kübler and BF Obergefr Fritz Günther both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.
The aircraft demolished the house killing 16 inhabitants. The bodies of Karl Kübler and Fritz Günther were subsequently recovered and now lie in Block 42 at Lommel in Graves 299 and 367 respectively.

Two of these can be discounted immediately while that of NEUMANN, in my opinion, also went into the Channel. To the best of my knowledge he remain 'missing' which would not be the case had he been recovered from the wreckage at Sercus. His gunner, LAUDEMANN was apparently treated in hospital at Dunkirk before being released during the German advance. This is consistent with his aircraft being lost somewhere over/off the coast.

So the identity of the 110 at Sercus remains elusive. However, it strikes me that if a body was indeed recovered from the wreckage there it should have received a local burial which opens an entirely new line of enquiry.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Peter

All very interesting.

On the basis of that, it would seem that none of the aircraft in your list can really be tied (even tentatively) to the Sercus crash.

I am convinced we have at least one casualty in the aircraft - although there was no evidence apart from one Luftwaffe flying-boot.

It is possible, of course, that any recovered body may have been buried as 'unknown'. (Thinks: Could that put Neumann back in the frame??)

I am going to ask my local French speaking researcher to visit the area again and speak to people in their native tongue who we visited previously in order to see what further clues we can perhaps establish, or else may have missed.

Re: Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France
 

Hello Andy,

Did you get any nearer a conclusion re. the identity of this Bf 110 since your last post?

I ask as I met a guy who told me about a Bf 110 wreckage recovered from a pond in the Bourbourg area of France in recent years, and I think it was probably your one at Sercus (20 miles SE of Bourbourg) as the details seem to be exactly the same (the farmer had put the wreckage in his pond, from where it was recovered, etc.)...and how many have been found in ponds in that area of France in recent years?! He had a section of wing spar of said aircraft.

He said he believed it was Oblt. Martin's aircraft of I./ZG1, 26.05.1940 (in which Martin (FF) was killed and Fw Kraft was captured wounded). I see that Oblt. Martin's aircraft was mentioned as a possibility early in this thread but prior to Larry's additional info on Wnr 2889. Martin's aircraft was recorded as belly-landing along the route to Gravelines, so I would not have thought the Sercus find was that one(?)

Hence my interest in this crash. I would be very glad to hear any additional info you have gleaned since Feb. 2012.

Regards,
James