Another captured LW pilot
 

Gentlemen,

As usual, how this loss was recorded in GQ?

14.05.1944 (or 11.05.1944) area of Grigoriopol - Dubossary. In airial combat shot down Bf-109. Unit uncertain (recon unit). Oblt. Ludwig Stahl (b.1915) bailed out and taken prisoner. His wingman managed to disengage, so, apparantly, he reported Stahl's loss.

TIA

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

The area strongly suggests that it was a plane from Luftflotte 4 :).

LF4 included two units with Bf109: JG52 and NAGr.14.

11..05.1944:
I./JG52 did claim several planes in the area of Grigoriopol, while 1./NAGr.14 claimed two Doppeldecker in the area east of Rybnitsa (also on the Dnestr, but further North).

15.05.
Again several claims by I./JG52 in the area.

For the well-documented JG52 I didn't find anything about a Leutnant Stahl. So, for me it seems to have been a pilot from NAGr.14. Its Stab and 1.Staffel were based in Leipzig (Bessarabia) and Comrat at that time, so I guess they covered the right part of Heeresgruppe Südukraine while 2.Staffel covered the left. Also, 1.Staffel had a loss due to enemy action in May '44.
The Aufklärer flew in Rotten, so it all makes sense as long as no Lt. Stahl from JG52 "pops up".

Sources:
- http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/nagr14.htm
- Tony Wood's claim list
- Luftwaffe maps covering the area

What backgound information can you give us on that case?

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

We have a little on Stahl's earlier career but not his loss in 1944:

STAHL, Ludwig. (DOB: 10.01.15). 26.02.43 Oblt.(d.R.), trf from Nahaufklärungsstaffel 4/33 to Führerreserve Ob.d.L. and ordered to FFS A/B 41 for temporary duty. 13.03.43 Oblt., in Führerreserve Ob.d.L.

HLdeZ/DGS

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Joerg and Larry,

Thank you for answers. I've checked my source more carefully. He is from 1/NAGr.14.
The story goes like this: on 14 May, Stahl and other pilot took off on flight to recon road north of Grigoriopol-Dubossary. East of Grigoriopol at h. 1000 m they were atacked by Soviet fighters. Stahl's Me-109 was badly crippled and he bailed out. Second Me-109 possibly managed to disengage, though Stahl did not observe it's fate.

Source:
TsAMO. f. 17 VA. op.6520. d. 25
"Interrogation protocoles of captured German pilots"

I presume Stahl was shot down by 897 IAP, since no more claims on Me-109 are reported in that area.

Regards,
Nikita

PS. Larry, could it be possible for you to check in your files Lt. Arnold Zeppelin from 2/KG4, shot down and captured on May 6, 1944 in Sewastopol area. Plane He-111H-20 (5J+IK)

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Hello Nikita,

Oblt. Stahls loss was reported like:
Krasnaja Gorka (Planquadrat 9713, Karte 1:300000) am Dnjestr
14.5.1944
Feindflug
1.(Eins)/ NAG 14
Oberleutnant, Flugzeugführer und Beobachter und Offizier z.b.V.
Vermißt über Feindgebiet und abgestürzt.
Bf 109 G-6, RL+JC, weiße 11.

Additional info:
Stammkennzeichen RL+JC was allocated to a Bf 109 G-6 Werknummer 161055, built in late November 1943 at Messerschmitt Regensburg. Looking at the Bewegungsliste for 1/NAG 14, the a/c perhaps was an /U3 Baureihe, what is a shot-range tactical recce-aircraft. In late 1943 and early 1944 quite a few newly manufactured Bf 109 fighters were allocatet to the General der Aufklärungsflieger and rebuilt to recce-configuration due to a shortage in recce-a/c.

HTH

Carl

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Charles,

Thank you for this marvelous answer!

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Hi, all

One additional piece of information - from the summary loss records one can read that the loss was recorded in the GenQu loss list of 24.05.1944.

Pilot and aircraft listed as missing in action.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Yes, Krasnaja Gorka is ca. 5km N of Thigina. Afaik, in that village was a soviet Army Headquarter at that time.

Some more background information:
In that area was a soviet bridgehead over the Dnestr called "Butor" (east bank village) or "Pugatscheny-Serpeny" (west bank). On 10th of May, the Wehrmacht started an operation to eliminate this small bridgehead - in vain. Anyway, this bridgehead was not decisive during the "Iasi-Kishinev-operation" later in August 1944.
Acc. to a book from Tschuikow, the Luftwaffe flew 877 sorties on the 10.05.44!

Nikita, do you know which type was used by 897.IAP and what was its subordination (IAD, IAK, Air Army)?

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Joerg,

This is 288 IAD/17 VA

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Jörg,

they used Yak-9s at that time and were part of 288 IAD/1 SAK /17 VA

Jan

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Nikita wrote in part:

Sorry, but we had to exclude most Leutnante and Oberleutnante from our data base because it would have become unmanageable otherwise. Our data base consists of 30,000+ of the 122,000 Luftwaffe officers who served during World War II. As you can see, we have none that begin with the letters "Zep...".

ZENTNER, Wilhelm. 01.03.43 promo to Hptm.(d.R.z.V./Flak).
ZENZINGER, Karl. 01.06.43 promo to Maj. z.V. (Flieger).
ZERBE, Edwin. 01.09.42 promo to Hptm. 09.06.44 Hptm./Maj., appt provisional then permanent Kdr. II./FAS II (still 04.45). 07.44 Hptm., Kdr. le.Flak-Abt. z.b.V. 12100.
ZERKIBL, Joseph. 01.08.43 promo to Maj.(d.R.). 01.45 Maj. and Maj. beim Stabe in Stab/Ln.-Abt. 123 (3. Flak-Div.) (to c.27.01.45). c.28.01.45 Maj., appt Maj. beim Stabe in Stab/Ln.-Abt. 168 (8. Flak-Brig.).

HLdeZ/DGS

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Larry,

Anyway, thanks for assistance.

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Nikita, one more question for getting a picture of the dogfight:

Do you know how many soviet fighters were involved and what was the altitude of the "kill" ?

EDIT: Concerning the loss from KG4:
Acc. to the KG4-book by Gundelach, the crew's members were:
Lt. Arnold von Zepelin,
Uffz. Anton Arsen,
Uffz. Wilhelm Schümann,
Obergefr. Karl Buschmann and
Gefr. Karl-Heinz Evert,
all listed as missing.

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Hello Nikita,
hello Jörg,

as for the KG 4 loss, the NVM filed 9.5.44 has this information:

Kampfeinsatz Krim, Pl.Q. 3344/ost
6.5.1944
He 111 H20, WNr. 700130
Wahrsch.feindb.
(Rem: Wahrsch.feind. stands for "Wahrscheinlich feindbeschuss" or "Wahrscheinlich feindberührung")

FF Lt. Arnold von Zepelin
Beobachter Uffz Anton Arsan
Bordfunker Uffz. Wilhelm Schönmann (?)
Bordschütze Obgefr. Kurt Buschmann
Bordschütze Gefr. Karl-Heinz Ebert

Vom Feindflug nicht zurückgekehrt, Keine FT-Meldung. Vermißt.

The Verbandskennzeichen 5J+JK is from another report attached to the NVM but having no other information than the NVM itself.

HTH


Carl

Re: Another captured LW pilot
 

Gentlemen,

Thanks a lot for Zeppelin info.

Joerg,

I do not know the time of Stahl's loss, and can not tied this case to any of Soviet claims. I can only presume that smb from 897 IAP is victor, since no more claims on Me-109 reported.