Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) of Stab A.Gr. 126, 16.09.41 Island of Milos, near the rock of Falkonera.

In the following doc is refeared a loss of two airmen and one heavily wounded. As far as i know FF. Ofw. .... Zimmermann was killed, who was the rest?

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Luftwaffe loss returns dated 19-9-41 has three handwritten names entered under Personnalverluste so I do not know if these were travelling on the aircraft rather than aircrew - 16-9-41 Ltn Rolf Wille , Uffz Karl Dorn and Ofw Franz Zimmermann. Admendment dated 26-9-41 then shows Wille and Dorn as dead and belonging to Auf.Gp.126, while admendment dated 30-9-41 shows Zimmermann as died of injuries and also of Auf.Gp. 126.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hello Brian, thanks

As one can see, on the document i posted is writen "zwei Mann der Besatzung tot, ein Feldwebel schwer verletzt" that means "two men of the crew dead, one Fw. heavily injured". Apparently the injured man died soon aswell.
My conclusion, all of them belonged to the crew, Franz Zimmermann was the pilot, Ltn. Rolf Wille the observer (?).
Can you tell me please the Nr. of the returns page you found these infos?

Byron

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

In the KTB of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. for September 1941 the following crew of this aircraft was listed as:
Lt.(M) Rolf Wille (observer)
Uffz. Karl Dorn (pilot)
Ofw. Franz Zimmermann (observer)
I personally think that Franz Zimmermann was a radio-operator rahter than observer. The cause was said to be pilot error and the location west of Milos.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Thanks for the contribution Seaplanes,

Are there any Codes-letters of this plane in your saurce?

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hei,

This T.8W was the former R-14 of the Dutch Navy air arm. It was a G type that means that it had a mixed construction. The forward fuselage was made of Dural, the centresection and wing made of wood and the tail of welded tubes covered with fabric. The Germans also used the M type, this T.8 was an all metal aircraft. During its ferryflight from the Fokker factory to Travermunde it registration was TD + CA

Best regards,

Mathieu.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

This is a very interesting info Mathieu, thank you

Byron

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hallo Mathieu

The continuation of building the Fokker T.VIIIW for Luftwaffe is badly known by me. How much is known today?
Most of those TOS by the MLD went to England in 1940 but what happened to former R-12 to R-38 (including those intended for Finland, R-37 and R-38)? Are Fokker c/n known for all of them?
My guess is that
R-12 to R-36 were c/n 5644 to 5668 but is that correct?
R-37 to R-38 ought to be c/n 5637 to 5638 but is that assumption correct as well??
R-37 and R-38 were coded KD+GG and KD+GH during testing by Lw
R-12 became KD+GB
R-13?
R-14 became TD+CA (see your own statement)
R-15 to R-36 did they become TD+CB and up?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hei Stig,

I'll try to find the information, can take a few day.

Regards,

Mathieu.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

The Luftwaffe took over the following Fokker T.VIIIW-G-2 mixed construction aircraft:
C/n 5644 - 5656 (ex. Dutch Ser.Nos. R-12 to R-24). Most of these went to 1./Aufkl.Fl.Gr. 126 in Greece. C/n 5647, 5648 and 5651 were written off for use as spares on 17.02.42 while in Greece. C/n 5649, 5652 and 5653 were written off and to be broken up in Athen-Phaleron in August 1942. I have the following Stammkennzeichen identified: 5647 TD+CB, 5648 TD+CC, 5649 TD+CD, 5650 TD+CE, 5652 TD+CG and 5653 TD+CH.
Three aircraft were never sent to Greece but stored at the Luftzeugamt in Travemünde until written off on 18.02.43.

Fokker T.VIIIW-M alll metal aircraft taken over by Luftwaffe:
C/n 5657 - 5668 (ex. dutch Ser.Nos. R-25 to R-36). C/n 5657 was taken by a Dutch crew and flown from Amsterdam to Broadstairs in UK on 05.05.41. The remainder seems all to be transferred to Greece for service with 1./126. The following were written off and to be broken up in Athen-Phaleron in August 1942: 5658, 5660, 5662, 5663, 5664, 5665, 5667 and 5668. C/n 5666 was lost on 30.05.42 while on a test flight. I have no Stammkennzeichen tie-ups for this batch.

Finally Luftwaffe also took over two Fokker T.VIIIC intended for export to Finland. C/n 5636 (reserved Finnish Ser.No. FW160) St.Kz. KD+GG. This aircraft was badly damaged during a storm in Amsterdam in November 1940. It was dismantled and stored until written off on 18.02.43. C/n 5637 (reserved Finnish Ser.No. FW161) St.Kz. KD+GH was stored until written off on 18.02.43.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hats off to Norway as usual Seaplanes:)

Excellent information
I notice you say the intended Finnish aircraft were c/n 5636 and 5637. This is at odds with N Geldhof's book 70 jaar Marineluchtvaartdienst which claims c/n 5636 was MLD serial R-6 and later RAF AV960. I then presume in YOUR list that R-6 was c/n 5638 instead?

Since I based my own c/n guesstimate on this books T.VIII details may I ask your source for the c/n details of 5636 to 5638?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hi Stig,

If you look at the footnote in the book you mention, you will see that the C/n in the main listing is a typo for 5638. The correct numbers for the Finnish machines are in the footnote to this listing. R-6 was 5638 and the two Finnish aircraft 5636 and 5637.

I can also add that the three aircraft stored at Luftzeugamt (See) Travemünde and written off on 18.02.43 were C/n 5654, 5655 and 5656.

The first of the Luftwaffe batch was C/n 5644 (ex. R-12) used for weapons trials. This aircraft was written off 18.02.43.

A second test aircraft was C/n 5645 (ex. R-13). This plane was delivered to E-Stelle (See) Travemünde in March 1941. I have no further data for this aircraft.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Thanks again Seaplanes

Yes I can see the footnote but wasn't sure what the author ment. I must at one point have thought the fault was in the footnote and not in the MLD list. Again one small building stone put to rest thanks to you!! :)

With such a vast knowledge about your pet-name it's about time YOU get a contract to write a couple of books instead of others. I can guarantee you have at least ONE buyer in my country....:D

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hei Seaplane,

You was a bit faster than I!! Anyhow, nice to see that more people other than Dutch are interested in the Fokker T.8w. Perhaps you already know that there is a good discription of the cockpit avaible on internet.
It can be found at :www.germanluftwaffe.com
You go to: geräterbretter --> cockpitprofile --> wasserflugzeuge/aufklärung --> Fokker T.8w

One small note, the T.8w/C has an increased wingspan and bristol mercury engines instead of the wright engines.


Hilsen,

Mathieu.

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

Hello
On the Finnish planes, it seems that FW-160 (c/o 5636) KD+GG was flown between 19 Aug to 15 Nov 40 60 times and FW-161 (5637) KD+GH 8 times by 7 Nov 40. Finns had cancelled the order by a letter dated 19 Sept 40 and Fokker decided to dismantle the planes. The German management of Fokker announced on 1 Oct 41 that the two T.8W-Cs will be sold to RLM and that meant that the Finnish equipments were removed, that incl the engines. They were to be replaced by German equipments but the finding of new engines was a problem. In the end this was solved and 5637 flew again 14 Apr 42. After series of test flights and modifications it was flown on 4 July 42 to E-Stelle Travemünde. 5636 was flown there on 27 July.

Source: Villem Vredeling: Fokker T.8W-C “Uusi merikone” vm. 1939 Osa 3 in Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti 1/2003

Juha

Re: Loss of a Fokker T.8 W (W.Nr. 5646) 16.09.41 Insel Milos
 

To complete the picture, I can add that in order to give these aircraft a kind of operational testing, four aircraft were delivered to Küstenfliegerstaffel 1./706 (U) in Aalborg-See and flown between June and August 1941. The crews were not over enthusiastic about his aircraft.
The planes were:
C/n 5647 TD+CB and 6I+MH, C/n 5650 TD+CE and 6I+NH, C/n 5652 TD+CG and 6I+OH, C/n 5653 TD+CH and 6I+PH.