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KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Hi guys
Perhaps a naive question but I don't know the answer! One of the ships in Convoy HX.84 bombed by KG40 was the Swedish freighter Vingaland, damaged on 8 November. She was sunk the following day by an Italian submarine. The question is - why was this vessel, from a neutral country, sailing with a British convoy? Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
IIRC from books I've read on the Battle of the Atlantic, I don't think that was unique but you could check the composition of convoys of the period at http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ to see whether it was common practice.
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Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian,
It was not unusual for neutral Irish shipping to sail in the Atlantic convoys. regards Tony K |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Nick & Tony
Thanks for not laughing at the question!! OK, so were the 'neutral' vessels requisitioned by the British authorities and crewed by the Merchant Navy? Or was there some other arrangement, particularly with Irish vessels? Did these Irish vessels have 'Eire' painted on their sides, etc? Would they have flown the tricolour whilst in convoy? The reason I ask is that I am interested in Luftwaffe attacks on neutral shipping in 1940, but assume that such ships could hardly be considered 'neutral' if sailing in a British convoy! Please enlighten me. Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian
Not a naval expert by far, but during WW 2 Sweden was in a tricky situation. To survive we needed to both import and export stuff via ocean vessels. We traded with both Britain and Germany, they were together I believe the two largest trading partners we had. Each arrival and departure had to be negotiated with the two combatant nations. Germany had by that time taken both Denmark and Norway and for us we had to negotiate a safe passage through the so called Skagerak blockade if we wanted to move out into the North Sea and still further away. Then we needed to negotiate a safe passage through British waters as well. Vingaland was part of SOL (Swedish Orient Line) which was a shipping line not connected with Germany and presumably had an easier task negotiating via our Foreign Ministry a safe passage with Britain. These negotiations during the war years never included any promise of a safe conduct, just a permission to pass through certain blockades. Swedish vessels had to take their chances just like every other vessel in a given area. Already at this early stage it was very much obvious that it was far safer to move a vessel in convoys and I am quite certain everyone concerned did their best to negotiate passage inside such convoys whenever possible. Large numbers of Swedish vessels were sailing to German ports both in the Baltic and on the Atlantic Coast. Many were sunk as can be seen on Rolf Skiolds home page http://www.mareud.com/ I think if you contact him you can get a far more detailed and comprehensive answer than I am able to give....:o Cheers Stig |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Thanks Stig
May I quote you? Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian,
Like Stig I too am not a naval expert.Here in Ireland it is said that "we were neutral against Germany". Irish registered vessels were not requisitioned by the British authorities for the Merchant Navy. Irish Vessels had the word EIRE in white on each side flanked by two tricolours. There were attacks on Irish vessels some with fatal results but I deem them to have been unintentional. On 19 Dec. 1940 the British registered Irish Lights tender Isolda was on route to the Coningbeg Lightship when a Condor approached. It circled the nearby Irish registered vessel Lanahrone (which had the neutral markings) and as it passed overhead it rocked its wings and headed straight for the Isolda and sank it. I have not been able to identify the Condor so far!. Oh and yes the tricolour was flown when in convoys. Perhaps my good friend Martin might come "on board" if he sees your posting. Regards Tony K |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Many thanks Tony
Hope to visit Ireland next year so will buy you a pint if we meet! Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian,
You are welcome. You name the time I will name the pub!! Best wishes Tony K |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Hi Tony
I can almost taste that pint of Guinness right now! In fact, there's a can of the brown liquid in the fridge - my wife is making her Christmas puds in which she includes a drop of Guinness! Must be our Irish ancestors! Cheers Brian PS: send me a pm to let me know where you are. |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Irish registered ships stopped sailing in convoy from 1942 onwards, sailing in convoy did not preclude the irish ships from attack. An example of this is Clonlara who was sunk while sailing in convoy OG-71. In order to ensure their safety the german legation was informed of all Irish registered ships trading and what routes they where on. This system however was not perfect however as three Irish ships would be torpedoed during 1942 & 1943.
The British government had also to be informed, as the Irish ships were required to hold a Navicert if they were trading with Spain & Portugal. They had a no go zone in Biscay that they had to keep out of. Kerlogue ventured into this area and was attacked by the RAF. Aircraft attacks on Irish registered ships occurred throughout late 1940 and 1941. The Isolda mentioned above also had EIRE painted on the ships side and was still attacked. I interviewed the last survivor from this hip and he said that he thought they were attacked because they were flying the Trinity house flag from the fore mast (it included a union jack). The luftwaffe didn't seem to be too hot on ship and nationality recognition as they also attacked an Italian ship off the kent coast in april 1940, Italy was still neutral at this time. Regards, Mark |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Thank you Coldmeter for that excellent additional input, I do have to disagree with you that Isolda had the identification EIRE on the sides of the vessel. It did not, what it had was, the words LIGHTSHIPS SERVICE on both sides of the vessel.
Regards Tony K |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Tony,
I'm just going on what Sam Williams, who was galley boy onboard Isolda at the time told me. According toSam EIRE was painted on the side. Regards, Mark |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Thanks for your help, Tony & Mark
Much appreciated. Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Quote:
The Condor was flying at 50 ft most of the time. The Coast watchers along the coast were looking down at it from some LOPs as it passed from north to south. The Isolda flew the Irish Flag on leaving harbour but took it down once it passed outside the three mile territorial limit. Regards Tony K |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian
Your private mailbox is full, but in short I am working on it and I will get back to you when I have more complete details Cheers Stig |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Hi Stig
Thanks for the nod. Should be OK now. Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian,
It probably had something to do with the type cargo that they were carrying and where they were going. I've read that neutral ships still ran during the night with all their running lights on and from many accounts U-Boats and surface raiders made no attempt to stop them. If they were stopped and there was contraband on the the manifest it wasn't a good thing for them. Also sailing alone on prearranged route didn't mean much as the British merchant fleet still ran fast single ships and would probably be sent along these same routes. The book about U-Boat ace Otto Kretschmer described searching neutral ships traveling in 1939 and 1940 coming from Sweden. The Germans at that time hadn't perfected their contraband list and gave their cargo as "Lumber" which wasn't on the list. |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Hi Nokose
Thanks for your input. Unfortunately for neutral ships there wasn't much chance of stop and search when being attacked by a Heinkel, FW200 or Ju88! Did Swedish ships have 'SWEDEN' painted on their sides? Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian,
No, it wouldn't help with aircraft attack. Most news reels that I've seen the attack came from the stern unless it was a torpedo or stuka attack. I don't have a lot of my U-Boat books anymore but I believe they were painted white or light color with a large flag of the country painted on the sides with the name above the flag. |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
[quote=Nokose;93553]
Brian, No, it wouldn't help with aircraft attack. Most news reels that I've seen the attack came from the stern unless it was a torpedo or stuka attack. ... quote] I can’t say what the Luftwaffe early-war training on this point included with any certainty, but it is odd to think of any aircraft attacking a merchant ship without first looking it over: certainly this was taught to Allied aircrew and was in fact a part of deciding what tactic to employ. I am not talking about convoys with flak-ships for protection, where in-and-out as quickly as possible was the rule for attackers, but rather solo ships or small lightly escorted convoys. Also, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but even getting into position to attack from the stern would offer the majority of aircraft an opportunity to see more of the ship. The neutral markings were meant to be large and prominent, and there are many examples of these being adequately recognised by approaching aircraft. A look at the exploits of the Allied anti-shipping groups operating from Malta will give an insight into what was possible in ship ID and choosing angles of approach. Concerning the night-time illumination of neutrals, this was enough to deter (most) U-boat captains, subject to the orders in force at the time. HTH, Bruce |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Thanks Bruce
Having digested the input, my question remains. Why then was the Swedish Vingaland targeted by a FW200 of KG40 (do we know the identity of the KG40 crew?) Cheers and thanks Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
The fact that Vingaland (2734 GRT) was in a convoy left her open to attack. The convoy was probably escorted so AAA protection. The Fw200 pilot is not going to have the option of telling if the frieghter is neutral or not coming in for a low fast attack on ships sailing in columns with a zig zag that could take place at anytime. Do we know the time of the attack? Lt Cdr Giulio Chialamberto on the Submarine Marconi claimed her as a 10000 GRT freighter on the 09Nov40 at 21:05. Maybe some one can check "Focke-Wulf Fw200 Condor" by J.C. Salgado it might have some information on it but I've read it is mostly a picture book.
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Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Quote:
EDIT correcting gibberish |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Thanks Nokose and Bruce
I am able to see things more clearly! Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Brian/All
As I said I am working on a more comprehensive answer regarding Swedish merchant fleet structures during WW2. The MAIN point to remember is this. When WW 2 broke out about 50% of the Swedish tonnage ended up OUTSIDE the Skagerack barrier/block. Those outside was NOT part of the so called Safe Conduct Traffic (Lejdtrafiken in Swedish). These vessels did not paint their sides as per the regulations stipulated by the Germans and they also could "do what they wanted" as long as they had a) Their shipping line on their side b) No hassle from the Swedish Government. When Vingaland was sunk she was sailing for Britain with British cargo. She was on the way to Glasgow from Halifax with a load of steel and general cargo. It was then of course natural that Vingaland sailed in the convoys arranged by Britain at the time. Vingaland had made at least one journey for Britain before that when she sailed in convoy HG-31 from Gibraltar to Liverpool 23.5.40 to 2.6.40 with a load of general cargo. At least five other Swedish vessels were sailing for Britain inside the convoys of HG-31 and HX-84. That means that those vessels OUTSIDE the blockade simply took their chances just like any other British/Allied vessel in the convoy. I did not know that before and somehow it feels pretty good that we did "something" for the Allied cause, even if the main reason was money... I don't envy those sailers sailing for any Nation during WW 2. They were a brave lot who just took their punishment face up and those who died are just remembered as statistics today. They were a brave lot.... Those Swedish vessel who negotiated a safe conduct passage were not allowed to enter any of the warring parties harbours and could not sail with any other nations vessels. Cheers Stig |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Many thanks Stig
I believe that I now understand the circumstances prevailing at the time. Cheers Brian |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
Hallo all,
NEUTRAL IRISH SHIPS SAILING IN ALLIED CONVOYS. Interesting thread ! And a very difficult one to answer with complete clarity, at least concerning neutral Irish shipping. I am not a naval expert either, but do have a long-standing interest in such matters. Firstly some background information that I believe is relevant to the topic. On the outbreak of the war in September 1939 the owners of many Irish-registered merchant ships, for various reasons, switched their vessels to the British registry. This development left Ireland with few cargo-carrying ships and none of the ocean-going variety. It caused severe problems and forced the Irish authorities and remaining Irish-based ship owners to use what were basically coasters and even masted schooners for long trips to Spain, Portugal and even further afield. Later of course some (VERY) second-hand ocean-going vessels were acquired by the new state-run company Irish Shipping Ltd. for the express purpose of bringing vital foodstuffs and supplies to Ireland. Concerning the thorny question of neutral Irish ships sailing in British convoys. I have found nothing - so far - to suggest this practice was sanctioned by the Irish government. Rather it appears to have been authorised or requested by the ship's owners. Referring back to the points in the above paragraph it is worth recalling that the Irish ships were small and perhaps for fear of breakdown or attack sailing with other vessels initially perhaps seemed to be the best option. Nor were Irish-registered ships ever armed. However the traumatic experiences of the crews of two Limerick-based ships sailing with the OG 71 and HG 73 convoys in August and September 1941 caused Irish ship's captains to recommend to the owners to stop sailing in British convoys. By early 1942 such sailings has ceased. Indeed there were a number of occasions when crews of Irish-registered ships refused to sail with a British convoy, preferring to sail independently. It is difficult for me to say this, but Irish ships sailing in Allied convoys were a legitimate target for the Axis. Also when in convoy no U-boat or aircraft could have identified them as Irish. However I do not hold the same view for Irish ships sailing independently. These could, in a majority of cases, be identified as neutral by German aircraft or U-boat crews; and still many attacks and sinkings took place. I have found no evidence yet that Irish ships sailed in British convoys during 1939 or 1940. The practice probably only began during 1941 after the introduction of the so-called 'Navicert' system by the British in January of that year. In brief Irish ships sailing to or from certain countries (especially Spain and Portugal) had to be licensed by the British authorities to do so. Failure to hold a navicert meant an Irish ship could not pass Allied patrols or receive help or stores in Allied ports. This especially applied to Irish vessels going to or coming from Spain and Portugal. The navicert system further required Irish ships en route to these countries to stop in Britain first in order to load coal and transport it to Lisbon for the British ! This arrangement suited both sides of course. On the return voyage to Ireland the ship had first to call at Fishguard for examination by the British authorities. Irish ship's captains were issued with detailed routing instructions by the British and were forbidden to sail in the Bay of Biscay or east of 12 degrees W on pain of being attacked on sight by Allied forces. While it does not seem Irish ships under the navicert system were required to sail in a British convoy it probably facilitated this practice for both the British authorities and the ship's owners. Having said that most voyages by Irish-registered ships were independent sailings. The navicert system was withdrawn on 27 April 1944 before the D-Day landings for security reaasons. The Irish ships engaged on the Iberian trade routes ceased doing so and apparently for the rest of the war sailed between Ireland and Britain. By that time however the new Irish Shipping Ltd. was sailing regularly to North America and elsewhere. To date I can only find one case of an Irish-registered ship sailing with a trans-Atlantic convoy. Almost all trans-Atlantic trips by Irish ships were independent sailings. Crews received a bonus for these and indeed vessels sailing alone could make more voyages per year than when travelling by convoy. Hence more bonus payments for the crews and more shiploads of goods for the country. (A 'win-win' situation I think it is called !). As far as I can tell the bonus payments only began in 1942 and may not have been universal. Neutral vessels sailing alone across the Atlantic journeyed on a special route reserved for them. The foregoing is my interpretation of information from several sources. In particular the excellent 'THE LONG WATCH' (WW2 and the Irish Mercantile Marine) (2nd edit., 2000) by Frank Forde. Also several volumes of Irish foreign policy documents up to January 1941 and a detailed study of documents in our Military Archives relating to attacks on Irish-registered ships from 1940 to 1944. Mark. Forgive me for repeating some of the points you made earlier. I know you are carrying out detailed research yourself on the maritime war around Ireland. Hope the above helps. Martin Gleeson. |
Re: KG40 & Convoy HX.84 November 1940
This link might be of interest. Select Table 1 & 2.
http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/Verl...01939-1945.htm Bruce |
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