Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi,

i have a strange code for a Me 110 of KG2:
In the NVM for a missing crew member i found the code for the
aircraft:

T-ZH

This seems strange to me, as the "normal" format is almost always XX+XX
(so 4 digits)

Does anybody know a marking/code like this?

Background info: This aircraft was used for training crews as preparation for the Me 410 training. Unit was 15./KG 2 (Destroyer group)

Thanks for help

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hallo :)

Is it T_+ZH (_T+ZH) or T+ZH? It could be that 1 sign was overpainted.

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hallo Evgeny,

i have this code from a document (NVM, WASt), and it is machine written.
So it should be T+ZH according to this document.
Of course there are often errors in these kind of documents,
so i was also thinking about and looking for different possibilities with a missing character.
?T+ZH
T?+ZH
-> without succes. I found no usefull result

Could it be something like the night-figher markings?
Perhaps the aircraft belonged to a nightfighter unit before?

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

As a probable variant, try to search in factory built codes (its database is aviable on LEMB forum)...

Also:

T1 - Aufklärungsgruppe 10
T2 - Erg. (S) Gruppe 2
T3 - 1./Bordfliegergruppe 196
T4 - Verbindungsstaffel Luftflotte 2
T5 - Aufklärungsgruppe ObdL, Kommando Rowehl
T6 - Sturzkampfgeschwader 2, from 10.43 Schlachtgeschwader 2, III./St.G.3 (briefly 1942), Stuka Erg. Staffel/VIII. Fliegerkorps
T9 - VersVerbTrsp des OKL, Erpkdo d OKL, "Zirkus Rosarius"
1T - Kampfgeschwader 28, Kampfgruppe 126, Stab/Kampfgeschwader 40, III./KG26 (1.42 - 2.43)
2T - 1.(H)/Aufklärungsgruppe 10, Stab/FAGr.4
3T - Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 800
4T - Wekusta 51
5T - Kampfgeschwader 101 (after 1.2.43), Kampfschulgeschwader 1
6T - Küstenfliegergruppe 706, Aufkl. Gr. Fleischmann
7T - Küstenfliegergruppe 606, Kampfgruppe 606
8T - Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 800, Transportgeschwader 2

This could be that a/c was transferred from 1 Staffel of one of units above...

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

The database to which Evgeny refers is the LEMB Sktz Database Homepage, an open resource listing Sktz, Wehrmacht Luft and civilian codes. With regards the Bf110 you list, there is a good chance that if this was used by a training unit, then it would have retained its Sktz code. Therefore, it may well be worth considering that it could have been ?T+ZH or T?+ZH with the ? being another letter...

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Thanks for the information and help,

i already was looking some weeks ago trough the Stammkennzeichen informations on the great LEMB website. But i didn't find anything that would match to "my" aircraft. But my search was not 100% perfect, so i may have missed some information.

I also have a Werknummer: 2485
(Other source for this crash is WNr. 2425, but i would vote for 2485.)
Perhaps we can get more details by looking for a possible earlier accident.
Does anybody has some crash/accident info for this WNr.?

Thanks a lot

Lino

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

W.Nr. 2425 - Bf 110 E-2, built in GWF during 6.41 - 6.41.
W.Nr. 2485 - Bf 110 E-3, built in GWF during 6.41 - 10.41

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

hello Lino,

In my database, the Werkenummer between nr.2471 and 2493 have no known Stammkennzeichen. It is most interesting to know whether your partial Stammkennzeichen T_+ZH or _T+ZH could solve us to fill in a missing gap in our knowledge.

Just a thought: could it have been 2483 ? If 2470 = DI+LU, 2475 could have been DI+LZ, 2476 starting with _T+ZA (or T_+ZA) and 2483 therefore _T+ZH (or T_+ZA)

Just some quessing and assuming that the DI+Lx Stammkennzeichen range did end with DU+LZ

Best wishes, Marcel
www.fliegerhorst-venlo.net

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi, Lino

Would be interesting to know when the loss happened in order to assist you.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi Andreas,

the crash was 04.07.1943,
but in GQM list, almost all info is wrong.
only date and unit (15./KG2) is correct.

According to my research and WASt info it was
for sure a Me 110, likely WNr. 2485 (GQM WNr. 2425)

I was doing some research since 2 years for this aircraft because it crashed in the lake near where i'm living and i'm in contact with the
cousin of the still missing radio operator of this Me 110.

And like always in aircraft research, sources are different and confusing and it's getting more and more worse, the deeper you go.

This time it's only the strange code/marking T-ZH left that i still can't solve. And it would be great having some more info about the individual
history of this Me 110.

Thanks to everybody for your help

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi.

Yes - the GenQu list give the aircraft as a Me 410, not a Bf 110.

Do you have access to the VLM?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi Andreas,

i don't have a copy of the original VLM, but i have two
letters from the WASt, they where checking twice the
VLM and named a Me 110.
Eye withness reported a crash of a Me 110 that day.
Fishermen "fished" some pieces of a Me 110 years after the crash.
Pictures of salvaged parts show definitively Me 110 parts.

As far as i know, the WNr. type doesn't fit well to a Me 410, but i'm not sure.

As you can imagine, in the beginning of my research, i was searching in archives and underwater for two wrecks, until i realised it's the same one.

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Balke gives 2485 but still a Me410, but this Wn is not a Me410 Wn, STKZ is T.+ZH, V.KG2 suffers other losses of Bf110/E-F in those days

Remi

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi Remi,

thanks a lot for the info. Seems to be a combination of the 2 sources. I was in contact with Mr. Balke before and will ask him for his source for this loss.

@Andreas: Do you have something for WNr. 2485 (Crash/accident before july 43)?

Greetings

Lino

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

2485 is unknown as lost/damaged or own by any unit, that gives confirmation for your 2485 accident

Remi

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

As far as i know, the destroyergroup of KG 2 (V. KG 2) was formed shortly before the accident. (around june 1943)

So the aircraft was build 2 years before, there should be a high possibility for a damage.

Perhaps we should also look for WNr 2425 (For the case at least this part was correctly mentioned in the GQM loss list.)

@Andreas
>>Yes - the GenQu list give the aircraft as a Me 410, not a Bf 110.
What's the WNr. for your loss?

Thanks a lot for help

Lino

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

2425 hs been 100 % lost time before, your case for me is solved the V.KG2 was at that time in formation, with numerous training flights, production of 410 was just beg. , maybe KG2 was the first to use it with KG51, so short of planes used second-hand Bf110, your plane is at 90 % if not more the Bf110E Wn 2485, Balke aprrouved his book is based on NVM GQM + Summ.verl. Meldungen, quite easy to see

a 2 years old plane is quite common for schools/preparation... , the KG26 start the war with He111H-1s in 1939 nd finished it at least for one group with the same model He111H-16s

Remi

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi Remi,

You are right, the WNr. 2485 should be almost safe now.

Perhaps one reason for the "Me 410" entry is the fact, that
V. KG 2 is only known for the use of this aircraft type.
But the Bf 110 was also used for training and preparing the
crew to the new Me 410.

@Remi
mercie beaucoup

Do you have some details for the 2425 loss for me?
Date/Unit

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Sorry , I misread the post of Evgeny, seems to me that he gave the loss-date,no just the birth-date, so we hv to downgrad my 90 %/your Safe to
50 % /half-safe.

It would be interesting to know why Balke select the 2485 vs 2425

...

Remi

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi, Lino

The WNr in the GenQu report is 2425, but as stated given as Me 410.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

@ Andreas
Thanks for info/confirmation.
Do you have an earlyer damage for one of the 2 WNr ?

@Remi
I have asked Mr. Balke about his source. As soon as i have a respone,
i'll let you now.

Thanks a lot

Re: Strange code on Me 110
 

Hi,
some questions seemed to be solved finally:
The Werknummer of this aircraft was 2485, because the Bf 110 with WNr. 2425 crashed already 03.12.1942.
The Code was surely 4T+ZH, so the Bf 110 was before assigned to the WEKUSTA 51.

I'll publish soon an article about the history of this aircraft, the salvage and his crew.

Greetings and thanks to everybody for help.