Italian FW190's?
 

On August 16th, 1943, Norwegian ace Svein Heglund encountered several FW190's over France near the Calais-Boulogne coastline (or in that general area). The Norwegian sqn gave chase. According to Heglund, who had extremely good eyesight, saw 2 FW's breaking away from the rest. Both had Italian markings and Heglund shot down one, 331 Sqn's 100th victory. Pieces broke off the FW, hitting Heglund's prop spinner. Throughout his life, he maintained with certainty that they had Italian markings, and that the rest of the German formation had standard German markings. What can this have been? I have absolutely no knowledge of any Italian FW190's. Could they have been 2 Italians trained by Germans in order to equip the Italian Air Force with FW's?

Stein

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

In a simple word, no.

Italy never get hold of Focke Wulf Fw 190s and as far as it is possible to ascertain until today, no Italian pilot was ever trained on it.

So, the vision of not one, but two Fw 190s with "Italian markings" (as long as we could understand what was meant by Mr. Heglund with that) and even flying over France must be completely dismissed, being one of the thousands mistaken identifications that took place in aerial warfare (even Fiat G.50s were sighted and claimed over Rumania before Allied pilots learnt that these were IAR 81s...).

No matter how much in good faith, the Norwegian pilot saw something that he connected with "Italian markings", but clearly was something else.

This sighting parallels with another of alleged "FW 290s" (later translated into Fw 190Ds) which Allied pilots reported encountering on Southern France (!) at a time when this version wasn't still being delivered to Luftwaffe units...

Hope this helps.

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Further no losses of Fw190 were reported in this aerea that day, in fact no losses of any planes lost in the area, the show was played over Normandie the 16.aug.

Remi

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Around Paris , in the east nd south of the Capital , JG105+JG107 advanced school-groups lost 4 Fw190 to ennemy, these ones hv different camo nd markings/still letters some time compare to frontline units, that could be your italians..

Remi

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Thanks for your replies. I am convinced that there were no Italian FW190's myself, however, Norwegian author and historian Cato Guhnfeldt, is convinced that Heglund is right. He wrote, and published, Heglund's biography "Høk over høk" some years ago, and in his latest work "Spitfire Saga" he again mentions the Italian FW's.
I have had a belief that these planes could have been from an Erganzungsgeschwader based in the Cognac area, but the JG refs in this thread seem more likely.

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Hi
I think there should be an archived post here somewhere , in july '42 Johnson claimed an italian fw 190 also.

http://www.wings-fine-arts.com/index.php?p=johnson

http://www.ww2awards.com/person/34672

maybe one of those mysteries..
or similar markings used by luftwaffe ?
cheers
Jerry

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

On a sidenote, the date itself makes Johnnie Johnson's identification quite laughable, since Italians received only on April 1943 their first Bf 109s from a very reluctant German ally... go figure if the Luftwaffe would have even lent one Fw 190 to the Italians one year before...! :rolleyes:

No mistery, only bad aircraft marking recognition... (anyone remembers the colors described by Clostermann on several FW 190s , including the all-yellow one?)

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Hello!

I wonder if the identification as Italian was based on the camouflage of the planes.

Because Soviets also identified Fw 190s as Machhis in Leningrad area in July 1943!!

Compare thread "Mietusch 7./JG26, Leningrad area & three-color camo Fw 190s" started by me: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=8108

I stress that I/JG 26 and 7./JG 26 might have arrived with three-tone (uppers) camouflaged Fw 190 to the Eastern Front (Luftflotte 1 - Leningrad - area). I wonder if this was done in preparation for transfer to more South to Luftflotte 6 area during the Kursk operation in the summer 1943. There perhaps was not so much revetment and camouflage material on airfields there? Same goes for JG 54 which had it's own improvisations.

Like I mention in the linked thread Eric Mombeek does have couple of photos of those odd-camo JG 26 Fw 190s.

Food for thought,
Kari

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Hi
My often 'wild ' thought was if the 190's had modified crosses and only the white was painted. (no black), then from certain angles maybe it could maybe look italian.
One thing I find strange is the comments of odd camo or markings, are all from higher rank, relatively well known pilots.
'poor recognition' I personally could easily accept, if the reports were from rooky pilots, but they aren't.
cheers
Jerry

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

The obvious comment is that rookie pilots wouldn't have been listened to, or recorded, or quoted from later if it was recorded. Perhaps a survey of all combat reports could settle that one. I don't find such reports particularly surprising, given the fury, concentration and adrenalin in the short duration of the fight, and the difficulty in obtaining clear views. However, it was the experienced leaders who got close enough to see such items, even fleetingly, and were cool-headed enough in the fight to take note mentally.

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Hi
A bump from the depths,
I wondered if an new info or thoughts have come out
cheers
jerryv

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Highly unlikely looking at what was written 12 years ago and nothing has surfaced since

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

Great thread though!

Thank you for bringing it up again.

Bronc

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

These "italian markings" could also just have been white fuselage bands from planes which had operated in the mediterranean theatre before. There are so many possibilites for misidentification and you never know what the people of these times were thinking or believing..

Re: Italian FW190's?
 

On markings the US did away with the red center in the star in May 1942 because it could be confused with the Japanese meatball. The other Allies also deleted red from their roundels in the war against japan for the same reason. The white bars to the star were added in 1943 because the white star alone could be mistaken for the German cross or Italian white Facist insignia. Also note the other markings yellow nose and fusalage bands on the Russian front for the axis and D-day stripes for the Allies

When you are it air combat in a fast moving plane and pulling a lot of Gs in a turn I would say marking identification is going to be a problem!