Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

Hi all,

I am not a frequent writer here even if always follow the forum with great interest.

I am planning a 1/48 model of a Bf 110 C-6 from Erp.kdo 210 in B of B. but a small problem raised.

All that planes where on charge of the 1st staffel and, if I am right, the proper third code’s letter should be white.
So why it is blue? (Or so it seems on S9+RH and S9+TH at least).
Same color appears on spinners too.

This colour should be the one used by 4th staffel later in the war.

Could anyone help me solving the question? Mr. Vasco maybe.

Thanks in advance and all the best.

Riccardo

Milan - Italy

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

C-6s were first on charge with 1./ZG 1 in the latter part of the Western Campaign in June 1940. Codes were 2N+-H. Sometime during the Western campaign 1./ZG 1 moved from white for the third character of the fuselage code and white spinners, to blue outlined in white letters for the third character of the fuselage code, and white/blue/white for the prop spinners.

The C-6s were taken by 1./ZG 1 with them when they were re-designated 1./Erprobungsgruppe 210 (not kdo) on 1st July 1940 and based initially at Köln-Ostheim. They moved to Denain as their operational base in France on 10th July, using St. Omer-Arques as an initial jumping-off base for missions against England, later Calais-Marck from early August onwards.

The initial batch of fighter-bomber Bf 110 D-0/Bs received by the unit was distributwed between the Gruppenstab and 2, Staffel, resulting in 1. Staffel flying the Bf 110 C-6s on missions throughout July and from what is presently known, up to 15th August. 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 continued the practise of blue outlined white third character letter, and white/blue/white spinners.

One former member told me that he believed the unique use of the colour blue at this time of the war by this Staffel was due to the fact that 1./ZG 1 carried on the Richthofen-tradition (as opposed to the Richthofen name used by JG 2) from the units which preceded it and therefore was allowed to act outside the 'norm' in this area of Luftwaffe policy.

As for doing a C-6 kit, you will need to scratch-build the 30 mm. MG101 cannon and the fairing which enclosed it, and the forward lower fuselage changes also, as I believe no company has yet come up with a discrete set of parts for this sub-variant. One decal company, however, has a decal sheet in 1/48 for a C-6 marking.

Hope this helps.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

Thanks a lot Mr. Vasco!

Your informations are highly appreciated !

I already made a vacuformed fairing and I don't think will be difficult to make a MK 101 barrel.

Regards.

Riccardo

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

MG 101 Aaaagggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

Maschine Kanone (MK) did not exist in the Luftwaffe in 1940. Anything 20 mm or over was Maschine Gewehr (MG). Hence the 20 mm cannon in the Bf 109 andf Bf 110 were MG-FF and MG-FF/M.

MK as a designation came later in the war.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

John:

Accoding a article from Your great book about Erpr.Gr.210 about Croydon raid, there are a question appears about Bf110C-6's in that mission.

You give a number of participants as 22. In the recalls of one of participants, he mention what staffeln were on that raid:

But as You can see, something is missing there.
First of all, I think Stab were 4 a/c, not 3, as Benedens was a Stab pilot (Gr.z.b.V).
Then, this list dont mention at least 1 a/c ( Bf110C-6 S9+TH) from 1./Erpr.Gr.210, whith crew of Beudel and Jordan, which was s/d.

It would give us:
4 Bf110D of Stab
1 Bf110C-6 of 1 Staffel
8 Bf110D of 2 Staffel
7 Bf109E of 3 Staffel

Total 20 a/c.

So, we are still missing 2 a/c.

If You look back to combat report of one of RAF pilots (111 SQdn, "green section"), You will see that this section was in combat with 3 !!! a/c, and a result was that one of them - S9+TH was s/d.

As for me, John, I think those 2 Bf110's, wich survived in combat mentioned above, were those "2 missing" a/c, and they were from 1./Erpr.Gr.210.

So, the final list of participants on that raid would be as follows:

4 Bf110D of Stab (3 lost, 1 damaged)
3 Bf110C-6 of 1 Staffel (1 lost)
8 Bf110D of 2 Staffel (2 lost, 1 damaged)
7 Bf109E of 3 Staffel

What is Your expert opinion on this?

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

By the 15th August 1. Staffel were flying Bf 110 D-0/B fighter-bombers. The reason Beudel/Jordon flew a C-6 on the Croydon raid was because their Bf 110 D-0/B was damaged on the raid against Martlesham Heath in the mid-afternoon of that day, and it was not fit to fly. So, they flew an available C-6 of the Staffel that was at Calais-Marck for the Croydon raid.

'In the recall of one of the participants' is not always the best reference. The person you quote, Karl-Heinz Koch, did not mention 1. Staffel in his numbers, and made no reference to Benedens, because, I preume, he did not hold a staff position within the Gruppe. What is not known is which aircraft Benedens flew. If there were no spare Bf 110s in the Gruppenstab, he would have flown an available one from 1. or 2. Staffeln. Sometimes, the information is simply not there to bring it down to precise details. Bear that in mind for your 'Wespengeschwader in Russia' project. You will not get 100% information, 100% of the time. It's something researchers have to accept, even though it is very frustrating at times.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

Aha, ok. I got it. DO You know, are there any other 1 Staffel crews on that raid, exept Beudel? Did Oblt. Lutz leaded his men of 1 Staffel? I spotted, You mentioned that each Staffel made its own defence circle during the fight. SO 1 Staffel could also made "theyr defence circle". Was that "3 Bf110" were from 1 Staffel, with 1 of them (Beudels/Jordan) shot down?

Yes, John, it is very sad, but it is so. I already understood this, and accept this. Had several things "lost", and for some fights (for example II./ZG1 in Crimea in apr-may1944) I will never have a full picture.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

oooooops! Sorry for mistake, you are absolutely right!
Which is the decals sheet you speak about?

TIA.

Ric.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

This is the decal sheet I was thinking about: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...BNK4jAeO9On9CQ

But unfortunately, it is for the one that was with a night fighter unit later in the war, so it is no help. The best you can therefore do is to get 1/48 decals for '2N' or 'S9' for the unit code, a black 'H', and a blue outlined in white letter from the second half of the alphabet.

Hope this helps.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

1. Staffel crews known to me to have flown on the Croydon raid:
Lutz/Schön
Beudel/Jordan
Neumann/Stoff

That does not mean that there were not others. I do not know the precise numbers from each Staffel, and it is likely that more than 3 Bf 110s from 1. Staffel took part.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

Thxts the answer I waited, thank You very much!

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

Thanks a lot.

I think I will use S9 from the sheet in the Eduard's "D" box while TH from spare. The most difficult part will surely be the MG's details inside the cockpit !

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

PM me with your email address if you need diagrams and close up photos of the rear gunner's position.

Cheers

Chris

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

Going up and down the web I found this link:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/arc...nenkanone.html

were MG (MK) 101 gun is technically explained with german text, photos and more.

Please scroll down the page and have a look at the PDF and .doc documents. One of the most interesting (if authentic) is the Messerschmitt one dated 22.2.1940 where the gun is coded as MK 101!

All the best.

Ric.

Re: Bf 110 C-6 Erprobungsgruppe 210
 

komet,

Excellent find, and most interesting that there is reference to 'MK' in February 1940.

What we have now is the Technical Offices of the Luftwaffe describing it as 'MK 101', in a document dated Febuary 1940, and an RAF document that I had a copy of from the PRO (now the National Archive) dated August 1940 which describes it as 'MG 101'. I'll quote you a bit from that original RAF document, which draws its information from the original examination of the 30 mm. kanone, which I included in my Erprobungsgruppe 210 book. "...Me 110. Crashed 15. 8. 40 at Copthorne, Sussex, Nr East Grinstead. The 30mm shell gun referred to was type MG101 made by Rheinmetall Works and was fitted under the fuselage in a large fairing approximately 9' long, 43" wide, 24" deep. Eight magazines each containing 10 rounds were found, a complete shell being 11" in length..."

The RAF could only have got that information from the manufacturer's plate on the kanone. So what we have is the designation 'MG' stamped on the gun, whereas Luftwaffe paperwork was already referring to the revised 'MK' designation. I think it was a simple case of not bothering (or nobody even thinking) to change the detail on the plate affixed to the gun. I believe that was also the case for the Bf 109s and Bf 110s that carried the MG-FF and MG-FF/M 20 mm. kanone. I think the A.I.(1)g reports mention those MG designations, but I cannot check this as all my material is now lodged in an Archive.

Fascinating, and it takes our knowledge of such things a little further along the road.

Thanks for that, komet.