4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Dear all,

I have a Staffel Kpt. of 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126 (01.12.42-30.09.43) named Oblt.z.S. Kriebel, he replaced as far i know Hptm. Rolf Lemp in 2./A.Gr.125

Question: What was his vorname? Who were his replacers till 10.44?

Have also some pilots of the same Staffel and don`t know the vornames, like:
Oblt. Schäfer,
Oblt. Richter,
Ofw. Kurth,
Ofw. Schlupka,
Ofw. Rupp,
Uffz. Hässler,

Uffz. Winzer,
Uffz. Paduch,
Ogfr. Schramm,
Uffz. Busse

Any help would be appreciated

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Kriebel is apparently:

KRIEBEL, Paul.
01.10.41 promo to Oblt.
11.42 Oblt., appt Staka 2.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 125 (to 05.43).
05.43 Oblt., appt Staka 2./SAGr. 125 (to 09.43).
09.43 appt Staka 4./SAGr. 126 (to 09.44).
20.04.45 promo to Hptm.

This is not to be confused with another fellow in the naval-air units:

KRIEBEL, Siegfried.
c. 06.41 Oblt., appt Staka 2./Kü.Fl.Gr. 906 (to 04.42?).
01.02.42 promo to Hptm.
20.04.45 promo to Maj.


We have nothing on Oblt. Schäfer, Oblt. Richter, who apparently never held a command or staff position, or a higher rank.

The others that you mentioned are too low in rank to be in our files.

You could also try the Kracker Archive at:
http://aircrewremembrancesociety.com...erArchive.html

Good luck and good hunting!

HLdZ
DGS

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Doug

your help is always appreciated, thank you

byron

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Doug

Michael Holm states that I./AufklGr 125 became I./SAGr 125 on 13.7.1943
Your reply indicates the change was already in May 1943. Can you expand on that please?

Byron/Doug

Byron, you state that Kriebel was St Kap in 4./126 between 1.12.42 to 30.9.43 while Doug states he was St Kap in that unit between 9.43 and 9.44. Any comments?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Yes, the 05.43 date is troubling. I can only conclude that this is wrong. It should read 07.43.

Regarding Kriebel as Staka 4./126, I went looking for who had been the successor and found none. Therefore, I expect that the 09.44 date is likely correct.

DGS

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

i am coming now to this conclusion:

2./Aufkl.Gru. 125 became 4./S.Aufkl.Gr.126 30.09.1943, (? 07.43)

St.Kpt. 2./Aufkl.Gru. 125, 04.41-11.42 Hptm. Rolf Lemp
St.Kpt. 2./Aufkl.Gru. 125, 11.42-30.09.43 Oblt. Paul Kriebel and than continued in the same duty as St.Kpt. of 4./S.Aufkl.Gr.126 till the End in Greece (10.44) according Doug

any other opinion?

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

The renaming of Aufklärungseinheiten to Seeaufklärungsgruppen und Staffeln occurred in May 1943 with the units receiving notification of this during the first week of May. These notifications came from General der Luftwaffe beim Oberbefehlshaber der Kriegsmarine (L.In. 8). I have seen these so I know it's factual. Anyway, either by intention and with permission or unofficially, some or all of the units concerned began using their new designations immediately or almost immediately in May 1943. Example:


Stab/Aufklärungsgruppe 125
May 1943: renamed Stab/Seeaufklärungsgruppe 125 at Constanta, however the order formalizing this change in designation (Gen.St.d.Lw.-Gen.Qu.2.Abt. Nr.9281/43g.Kdos.) was not issued until 13 July 1943.


Now, why the nearly 10-week delay between the notifications of May 1943 and the 13 July date of the order? Beats me, but bureaucratic delays of this sort were not unusual when coordination had to take place between two different branches of service, in this case OKM and Ob.d.L. Also, 9281/43g.Kdos. undoubtedly contains an effective date and a reference to the earlier notifications and that would help clear up the confusion. This order may still exist in the Skl./OKM records because those are far, far more complete that the largely destroyed Luftwaffe records.


If anyone can produce this order or add to this discussion with well-sourced and documented information, it would be appreciated.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Postscript

Quoting from the KTB of General der Luftwaffe beim Ob.d.M.:

Kurowski, Franz - Seekrieg aus der Luft (Herford: Verlag E.S. Mittler & Sohn, 1979), p.249.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

As late as mid June 1943 the term Aufklärungsfliegerstaffel was still used.
Quote:
Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. 9036/43 g.kdos. v. 12.6.43:
Gem.o.a. Bezug wird mit sofortiger Wirkung Aufkl.Fl.St. 1/125 aufgestellt.

The reorganisation of the seaplane units was first ordered by Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. Nr. 9281/43 gKdos. (IIA) v. 5.7.43
when Aufklärungsfliegergruppen became Seeaufklärungsgruppen.
For the units in Norway this reorganisation did not take place until 10.8.43.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

the question that still exists is:
when exactly did 2./125 change to 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126 ? End 1943 is too general, more exact info would be needed.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

The 2./S.A.Gr. 126 was formed according to order from Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. Nr. 10984/43 gKdos. date not given but order repaeated in KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M/O.Qu. for October 10, 1943.
The 4./Seeaufklärungsgruppe 126 is to formed locally (Auf dem Kommandowege)with immediate effect. To be effected through Lw.Kdo. Südost. Of the 9 Ar 196, 6 was to be drawn from 1. and 3./S.A.Gr. 125 and the final 3 from reserves. The formation was to be completed before 20.10.43.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Sorry for the typo. Please read 4./S.A.Gr.126 and not 2./S.A.Gr.126.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Hi seaplanes,

Franz Kurowski in his book "Seekrieg aus der Luft" has some different confusing dates.

4./126 had in May 1943 a small department on Rhodes and participated already Nov.1943 in the fights of Dodekanes

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

In September 1943 it was decided to form a new Staffel with base in Skaramanga attached to S.A.Gr.126 by drawing the 3 Ar 196's each from 1. and 3./S.A.Gr.125 + a further 3 aircraft from the reserves. These two Staffeln were otherwise equipped with BV 138 but each had a flight of 3 Ar 196. It was also discussed to equip this new Staffel with seaplanes found in Italy. The first mention about this is on 18.09.43 followed by a new letter of 24.09.43. As I mentioned in my previous posting, I do not have the date of the actual formation order from Gen.Qu. 2.Abt., but it was published in the KTB for Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. for 10.10.43. I have not seen mention of a 4./126 before this date. Do you have any source refrence. All my information is from the original KTB's.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

besides Kurowskis book , no other sources. But there is a loss already in August 1943

FF. Uffz. Winzer (+) Ar 196 A3 (D1+AN, W.Nr. 0249) Absturz 29.08.43 Bucht von Eleusis,


is your KTB of NARA origin? Can you give me the T and roll-Nr., it would interest me very much to order it Seaplanes, in general this unit S.A.Gr. 126

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Your statement in green is not in dispute. I agree with it. It seems clear from the accumulated evidence that May and June 1943 were a "transitional" period for the Gruppen and Staffeln affected by the reorganization. Some were using the new designations and some were not. Some were using the new designations some of the time but not all of the time during those two months. Here are several additional citations to throw into the pot, so to speak.

ULTRA Intercepts:
08.06.43: 2./Seeaufklärungsgruppe 125 reported 12 x Ar 196s on strength at Suda Bay (ML5771). The Staffel identified itself with that designation.

Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen:
29.05.43: Ar 196 shot up and damaged 35% charged to 1./Seeaufkl.Gr. 126.

Published Sources:
08.06.43 (give or take a day or two) is given as the formation date for 1.(F)/SAGr. 128 (Kurowski p.248 and S.Neitzel p.194).

So, as I stated previously, there seems to have been some flexibility in the use of the new designations once the notifications went out.

L.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Mr. Kurowski is not completely correct. In the KTB of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for June 1943, the formation order for 1. and 2./128 is given as folows:
RdL und ObdL Genst.Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. Nr. 8741/43 gKdos. (IIA) of 29.05.43
Mit sofortiger Wirkung wird die Küstenfliegerstaffel 2./128 aufgestellt.
Mit sofortiger Wirkung wird die Bordfliegerstaffel 5./196 in Küstenfliegerstaffel 1./128 umbenannt und umgewandelt.

In a letter from Lw.Führungsstab of 29.05.43 it was suggested that the term Aufklärungsflieger should be replaced by Seeaufklärung. However, this was a suggestion only and Gen.Qu. 2.Abt. was asked to agree to a new arrangement of the seaplane units. The actual order did not come until 5.7.43.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Good discussion, Seaplanes. It takes a discussion like this to assemble what is known about a particular subject and then take it apart and examine it.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

but as we can see Lary, the dates are very fluid.
for ex. in Qu.M returns we can read under 2./125:

FF. Ofw. Karl Stienkemeier, Ar 196 (W.Nr. 0240) 100% m. BO. Ltn. Wolf Zacharia, beide (+) 03.08.43 Chania,


that is a late date for 2./125

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

Byron wrote in part:
Exactly, Byron, exactly. That's the point I've been trying to make. In 40+ years of researching the Luftwaffe, I have run into it time after time. Even the dates on orders changed as they passed through the various levels of command from 2.Abt.(Organisations-Abt.)/Genst.d.Lw. - to a Luftflotte - to a Fliegerkorps - and finally to the unit or units concerned. So often in the postwar literature we will find different dates for the same order. This is particularly irksome when trying to determine the exact date a particular officer assumed command of a Geschwader, Gruppe of Staffel. Do you use the date of the Luftwaffenpersonalamt order, or the date of the Luftflotte/Fliegerkorps order, or the date of the unit order, or the date he arrived at the unit or the date the unit KTB says he took over, or the date he says he took over in his personal diary, and on and on. And just when you think you have it all figured out, someone else comes along and says it's wrong, usually without offering any evidence, or course. And at the end of the day in the year 2009, I don't think it matters a whole hell of a lot if some researcher/enthusiast uses a date that off by a few days or a few weeks. It's just not terribly significant in the greater scheme of things.

L.

L.

Re: 4./Seeaufkl.Gru. 126
 

and an other extreme case of a very late date

2./125, 09.11.43 Ar 196 (W.Nr. 0429) 100% Absturz NW. Stampalia, Besatzung unverletzt gerettet