Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Hi all

Below are 2 images of a Savoia Marchetti S.79 "SPARVIERO" in Luftwaffe markings. There is some speculation as to whether the undersides were painted yellow or not. Has anyone got anymore evidence or views regarding the yellow undersides?

There is a discussion on the matter that I found on LEMB: Here (Starts half way down page!)

I just wondered if any of you guys have any ideas?

Photo taken from: Il Ricco Bottino (The Rich Booty) by Hans Werner Neulen
Profile from: Ali D'Italia nr. 11 'SIAI S.79'

Thanks in advance. Here are the images:

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Yellow seems so wrong. Yellow was used on the underside of captured Allied aircraft when flown by the LW. The SM 79 was in a "hostile' aircraft. It was used by the ANR in a combat role.

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Another 2 Profiles of CQ+HO showing yellow undersides. Seems strange how all 3 artists have presumed yellow undersides. Second one reads "Savoia Marchetti SM79 operated by Luftwaffe as a transport after the Italian Armistice of 1943"?

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

The camouflage is totaly wrong. It was ex-yugoslav machine (tactical number 'white 33' and ex MM 22407) landed from Mostar to Zemun airfield in 11th April 1941. Next day, early afternoon Zemun airport captured by local volksdeutschers who passed it to Luftwaffe units. After repair (maybe in Ikarus factory), and repainting original Italian camouflage, that airplane got Yugoslav camouflage: dark green and dark earth on upper and light blue-gray on under side. On 24th April 1941 that SM-79 transferred to Luftflotte IV, some months later came from Wien to Agram (Zagreb) and introduced in Croatian AF inventory under serial number 0701. Next year, it shoot down by partisans in Bihac area and crew captured.

Upper summary I read from article wrote by mr Ognjan Petrovic in Vesnik (Herald) published by Military Museum in Belgrade this year about the planes of Italian origin in Royal Yugoslav Air Force (Vazduhoplovstvo Vojske Kraljevine Jugoslavije - official name) in 1937-1941.

Kind regards

Newcomer:)

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Thank you very much Newcomber for your interesting post. So the upper areas on the elevators and rudder were also light blue grey?

Thanks again

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

No. The rudder and horizontal tail control surfaces are yellow.

Kind regards

Newcomer

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Sorry to be a pain Newcomer what about the Engine Nacelles?:)

When you say "Dark Earth, Dark Green & Light Blue Grey" are you meaning that these are specific colours used by the VVKJ or do you mean they are imported RAF or imported German paints? During this period the VVKJ were only using imported colours from Britain & Germany. So when the aircraft was repainted from Italian to current camouflage after being passed to luftwaffe units what colours were used? RLM? RAF?

Thanks for you time

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

I have chance to talk with sergeant who has engaged in painting of this machines and he claim two color on top side, brown and green. But some image definitely show third color. Interesting to note that during the conversation with another Yugoslav pilot of SM. 79, he said that there is no other camouflaged used but Italian mottle.

I know this image for long time but I could not guess that it is interesting.

Cheers :)

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Thankyou Srecko

Interesting post. Would you have an opinion on what brown and green paint? RLM or RAF?

Thanks again:)

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

No info exactly that they are nitro and semi gloss. It could be British type but no proof for this.

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Is CQ+HO really correct? Last letter is uncertain...

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Just trying to work out what paints the Yugoslavs who repainted the aircraft from Italian colours to the colours shown in the photo might of had available to them.

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Not sure Bernad? I just presumed it was CQ+HO as so many people before me have?

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

I was asking because apparently CQ+HO was a Klemm Kl 35.

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Really! :lol: It gets better and better. What else could it be and where would be the best place to look for the proper code? So what else could the partially hidden last character be? Q again?, S, G, C,

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Hi Newcomer

Do you by any chance have the serial numbers of the 45 SM.79 bought by Jugoslavia in 1939?

If I understand you correctly your sources claim that this SM.79 was captured by the Germans in 1941 and the German code CQ+H? was given at that time before it was handed over to Croatia as 701 later in 1941?

Or is the implication that Luftwaffe aquired it by some means from Croatia later in the war?

Also could any of our Italian friends advice why on earth every Italian author in the past has so totally mislabelled the photo. I have seen it listed as taken in 1942 and post 1943 armistice with the Allies....:confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Hi Dénes

The database over at LEMB has the aircraft as follows:

Listing

CQ+HA HeinkelHe111 VIP transport in the Luftflotte 4 d
CQ+HA JunkersJu52 /3m geW.Nr.5989W.Nr.5989 D0025 d
CQ+HA JunkersW34 FFS A/B 121 d
CQ+HB Focke WulfFw58
CQ+HB HeinkelHe111 D0074/68 d
CQ+HC Focke WulfFw58 Wetterflugstelle Konigsberg
CQ+HG DornierDo17 Z-2W.Nr.4187W.Nr.4187later DN-61 Finland
CQ+HH JunkersJu52 /3m first D-ASCKFlugber./Luftflotte 4
CQ+HI JunkersJu52 /3m
CQ+HK SiebelFh104W.Nr.879W.Nr.879 M0002/8/17
CQ+HO Savoia MarchettiS.79
CQ+HQ KlemmKL35 D0077
CQ+HR CantZ.1007 d
CQ+HR KlemmKL35 FFS A/B 24 D0077 d
CQ+HS KlemmKL35W.Nr.1465W.Nr.1465 F0088 -1943-03-02
CQ+HT KlemmKL35 CQ+HUKlemmKL35 Schule/FAR.53 B0002
CQ+HW KlemmKL35
CQ+HY CaudronC.445 FFS A 12
CQ+HZ FieselerFi156

What is your source?

Thanks

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

It's a comprehensive database I have access to and which I trust.

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Of course. there is list like that, with included vene engine and machine gun serial numbers.

Cheers :)

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Thank you Dénes

I shall inform the guys who look after the LEMB database of the possible mix-up. In your opinion what do think the code has a strong chance of being?

Thanks again:)

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Well there is not a lot else it can be? Possible letters according to the photo are Q again?, S, G, or C.

CQ+HQ KlemmKL35 D0077
CQ+HS KlemmKL35W.Nr.1465W.Nr.1465 F0088 -1943-03-02
CQ+HG DornierDo17 Z-2W.Nr.4187W.Nr.4187later DN-61 Finland
CQ+HC Focke WulfFw58 Wetterflugstelle Konigsberg

Above codes from LEMB database. Are these codes the same in your source Dénes? A bit of a puzzle this one!

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Here is what I found:
CQ+HQ Klemm Kl 35
CQ+HS Klemm Kl 35
CQ+HG Dornier Do 17 Z-2
CQ+HC He 111 H-3

Puzzle it certainly is!

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

:confused: Anyone know of cases where two aircraft could have used the same code? Any chance the HQ+CO Klemm Kl 35 could have been destroyed and the Savoia Marchetti S.79 given the code HQ+CO later or vice versa. I have noticed this before when a Hs126B-1 WNr.374 (V7+1K) was shot down the code was used again by 1./(H)32 when they got FW189A-2 WNr.125243 (V7+1K).

1./(H)32 info from here

Cheers

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

The difference is between the unit code, which can indeed be multiply used, and the aircraft's individual identification, which cannot. Duplicate use may be a simple error: with so many aircraft being so handled, the complete absence of error would seem less likely.

Errors have been identified on RAF serials, a fairly directly comparable situation.

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

CQ+HA HeinkelHe111 VIP transport in the Luftflotte 4 d
CQ+HA JunkersJu52 /3m geW.Nr.5989W.Nr.5989 D0025 d
CQ+HA JunkersW34 FFS A/B 121 d
CQ+HB Focke WulfFw58
CQ+HB HeinkelHe111 D0074/68 d
CQ+HC Focke WulfFw58 Wetterflugstelle Konigsberg
CQ+HG DornierDo17 Z-2W.Nr.4187W.Nr.4187later DN-61 Finland
CQ+HH JunkersJu52 /3m first D-ASCKFlugber./Luftflotte 4
CQ+HI JunkersJu52 /3m
CQ+HK SiebelFh104W.Nr.879W.Nr.879 M0002/8/17
CQ+HO Savoia MarchettiS.79
CQ+HQ KlemmKL35 D0077
CQ+HR CantZ.1007 d
CQ+HR KlemmKL35 FFS A/B 24 D0077 d
CQ+HS KlemmKL35W.Nr.1465W.Nr.1465 F0088 -1943-03-02
CQ+HT KlemmKL35 CQ+HUKlemmKL35 Schule/FAR.53 B0002
CQ+HW KlemmKL35
CQ+HY CaudronC.445 FFS A 12
CQ+HZ FieselerFi156

This list is at least interesting for one thing , it shows that these types of listings are pretty hard to build-up,
Quite for sure to CQ+HQ the right plane is the Kl35 , the code was given pres. in the order HQ/HR/HS..to HW, to planes of the same school.

Maybe those planes where at one moment, or an other, destroyed , codes given to new/bowty planes...or..

Remi

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

What about CQ+HO though Remi?

Clint

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Hi

I have issues not only with the origin of the SM 79 and how it came into German use but with the other Italian aircraft in the same Stkz block.
CQ+HR
Is this a genuine Stkz for a Cant Z.1007? I ask this because all I have seen is a Profile painting of the aircraft with the oddly coloured painted markings.
Has anyone seen a photo of this aircraft with the said Stkz?

Regards

Tom Willis

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

I have a Kl 35 for this Stkz.

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

Have a look at K.Merrick´s 2nd vol. p.369 and you´ll see some double codes, i.e. registrations...

I´d like to quote from "Luftwaffenverordnungsblatt Nr.9 vom 20.02.1939" (taken from M.Ullmann´s book)concerning the use of Überführungskennzeichen (transfer codes):
"III.Gültigkeitsdauer
Das Überführungskennzeichen gilt nur für die Dauer des Überführungsfluges. Nach Eintreffen des Flugzeuges am Bestimmungsort ist es unverzüglich abzuwaschen. Die Dienststelle, die das Flugzeug übernimmt, teilt der Bauaufsicht des Lieferwerkes bzw. dem Luftzeugamt oder Luftpark innerhalb 3 Tagen nach Abholung mit, daß das Überführungskennzeichen zur anderweitigen Verwendung frei ist."

This means the Überführungkennzeichen, i.e. Stammkennzeichen is not a four letter code fixed for one certain plane but it may be re-used. This may be practicable in peace-time service but hardly to realise during wartime. But it is possible.I´m quite sure that Flying schools and other special units better related to the center of the Reich and its admisnistrations were using this possibilities to assign double registrations re-used for destroyed school planes.

I´ve always wondered why the "Stammkennzeichen" are regarded by you as a strictly fixed rule. No, it was thought as a flexible regulation - such as cars,btw - but war with its over-stretched administartion prevented it from being used for front planes.
What´s your opinion?

Regards

Roland

Re: Savoia Marchetti S.79 wearing strange Luftwaffe Markings/Camouflage
 

The two types of codes were totally different, do not mix them.
As far as I know, the Überführungkennzeichen were used pre-war and early war, and the first two letters always referred to the factory (i.e., HS for Henschel). These, indeed, were reusable.
However, the Stammkennzeichen were -at least theoretically - unique, of single use. Exceptions occurred, of course, due the imperfect bureaucracy. Our case might have been such an exception...