Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hi gents,

Here is the picture: http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-Flugzeug-Ken...item3ca6d771c6
Sell price is already very high. Seems some got what was about.
4./JG 54, "Weisse 1" flown by Lt. Hans Philipp, September 1940 in Coquelles.
Some, very few, clues: Camouflage pattern on cowling, and extension low under cowling. Dark coloured main gear legs. Rear-view mirror on early canopy frame. General background environment and 8 victory bars.

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello,

This is probably a 6 Staffel a/c, not the one of Philipp, who was in 4 Staffel.

Regards

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hi Larry,

Why not? But why(?) is more interesting. Telling the truth I'm not sure my source -another picture- is that reliable!
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

salut Franck,

I am used with environment in the Calais aera and I do not why, but the nude background does not look for very well to Coquelles.

The last issue of Batailles aériennes on JG52 (http://www.avions-bateaux.com/en/cat...ogue_1309.html) have prints taken in Coquelles.

Bertrand

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello Bertrand,
As I said:
I'm sure this ebay picture and the one I used as source are displaying the same plane, and my "source" caption talk about one Hans Philipp 4./JG54 white 1 in Coquelles, septembre 1940.
Now, Larry said this is a 6./JG54, I said "Why"? you are saying it's not Coquelles, ok then no problem...
So another solution? 8 victory bars, 6./JG 54, around september?.

Thanks Bertrand.
Cheers,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

But this is not September. Franck I know your source and believe me there many wrongly captions.

Regards

Robert

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hi Robert,

Yes, that's the reason I said "It's not that reliable". So, another solution?

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Of course there must be a "solution"...

Regards

Robert

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello Robert, Hello All,
In fact, the many-wrongly-captions source got is own source on JAGDWAFFE Battle of Britain Phase two, August-September 1940, by Erik Mombeek, David Wadman & Martin Pegg, Page 157.
Unless Mr Mombeek was wrong, the picture I did post shows the same aircraft.
Concerning "September", I'll be glad to get a complete Hans Philipp victory list.
Concerning "Coquelles", well I agree; better Campagne-lès-Guînes.

Cheers,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello,

I've examined the reference photos in the Jagdwaffe volume, and this aircraft could be either 4. or 6./JG54, but likely is 4 staffel. It is definitely the same a/c seen in the two photos in the Mombeek Volume. The things that we know is that this is in a camouflage pattern without yellow ID markings, which probably dates this prior to about the 2nd week of August, 1940, but definitely during the BoB, so July or early August, 1940. The thing that bothers me about the ID of this as "White 1," is the position of the "1" in the photo published in Mombeek. It is so far forward that it is much more likely to be "1X" in the range from 10 to 15, but is not likely to be just "1." See the example of "Yellow 10" on P. 318 of Prien's JFV #4/II for an example. Moreover, there was another 4 Staffel pilot who had a victory total by this period that could account for this a/c, Obfw. Maximilian Stotz, who got his 9th on July 8th. Since Philipp did not move up to StaKap of 4th Staffel until August 25th, when you would expect that he might have taken over "White 1," and this was photographed earlier than that due to the absence of yellow campaign markings, this could still be Philipps a/c, but carrying a "1X" a/c number, rather than "White 1."

At this point, the actual plane number is only likely to be determined by further photography showing that clearly. Even then, it could still be either Phillip or Stotz, assuming that this is a 4 Staffel a/c.

So, unless Mombeek is working from something more than interpretation of the two photos in his book, his ID of this as Philipp's a/c and "White 1" has to be highly suspect.

Regards,

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello,

OK! Like this I prefer. And you're right White 1 position is quite disturbing.
I have a Partial Hans Philipp victory list. So counting from 1st to the 8th I got September. That's the reason I ask for a possible complete one, if available.
You can notice too that on the same Page 157 we can see Hans Philipp with Oblt. Werner Pichon Kalau von Hofer, and the caption says 26th of August.
It happens that picture have been taken the same day than the famous coloured one for which caption says "October".
... I have a problem with that one too, but clearly on the coloured one we can count 18 or 19 victory bars. Seems around October no?

Cheers,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Franck,

Philipp did not score any victories between his 8th on 7.6.40, during the WC, and his 9th on 30.8.40, well into the BoB. Since II./JG54 apparently entered the BoB carrying the mottled camouflage on their 109s, these photos could only have been taken in either Holland or France after the unit returned to the coast in miid-July, 1940. The absence of yellow tail markings means that this photo were taken from then until the first week to ten days of August, By August 13th, almost all Luftwaffe fighter units carried yellow tail markings, some even earlier than that date. If this were the aircraft of Philipp, or anyone else, this gives a limited time window for these photos, and there were only two 4 Staffel pilots with the right victory totals during that period, although the plane probably wasn't "White 1." I think it likely to have been Philipp's aircraft, but we don't yet know the correct plane number. If anyone has further evidence of this, I'd certainly like to hear from them.

Regards,

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hi All,
Curiosity...
The the dark undercarriage legs ( red?)
Do they indicate C3 fuel is required by the a/c engine ?
cheers
Jerry

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello,

Larry, your PM box is full, if you don't mind. Thanks.
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Not sure how to apply a photo to this place, but there is one photo in this little book, I think of Trautloft's diary-which unfortunately I can't find right now - that has some very interesting photos. Along with 1 or 2 photos of 'unknown' machines of Trautloft, is a version, or one of a series of, Phillip's more well-known Es. This is the one of him and a couple of other guys standing about the tail of his machine which displays 18 claims. This has been published as a color photo in some sources. This 'wider' cropped version shows the right edge of what can only be a 'white 9' and does not match the e-bay photo. This would be consistent with his later more well-known Bf 109F-2.

There is also a series of photos of a Bf 109E from 4./JG 54 'white 1' in of all places, an Italian book about Italian ace Furio Niclot Doglio. In this case the Italians were using at least one ex-4./JG 54 Bf 109E for training on the 109. The one photo from the port side does not match the e-bay photo, but it does point out one possible issue. The prop spinner has a white band at its front end. Given this, we may be looking at a 5./JG 54 machine. Could this be 5. Stkp. Roloff von Aspern? He claimed like 18 vics before buying it in Nov. 1940.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello thenelm,

The picture I posted doesn't show a front end white band on spinner.

You're talking too about a colour picture showing Hans philipp with other guys standing about the tail which displays 18 claims. In the mean time, you said the wider version shows something like a White 9. Interesting. At that time he was already StaKn, hence we are waiting for a white 1, but why not? Can you show us the Wider version?
Of course doesn't match with the eBay photo, not the same plane. I/we am/are talking about that plane pictured on P.157 of that Jagdwaffe Book(See upper), well, I hope we are!

Last, I wrote to Mr. Mombeeck to get some explanations. The answer was he doesn't remember why he did put this caption and will look further if managing time to do so.

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Franck, my PM box is now open.

Regards,

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

The photo I am referring doesn't show very much as far as the complete code number, but just by the straight edge with curved ends it has to be a '9'. If someone can tell me how to attach a photo here I'll do it for sure.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

hi Thenelm,

first use "Post reply" - not quick reply - to get access to the full editor page. There is a window "manage attachment" in the bottom. Then you continue following the instructions. When the picture is loaded in the attachment windows, just close this window.
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Two images of Phillip 'white9'?

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hi Thenelm!

This is great! Same plane, same place, same guys and suddenly it's not a "White 1" but a White 9! Where the hell the White 1 gone? In history limbo? Somewhere between the page 154 and 155?
Are you the first to notice that thenelm or did you see any other comments elsewhere? hence:
1/ The importance of "original picture" term.
2/ The way the pictures are cropped in publications (for convenience?).
3/ The good face of a forum!
Thanks thenelm.
Regards,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello All,
'Think it's time to go back to this plane.
1/ Number 1 position.
Could be "1X" as said before, but could be "1" alone. See, for example, the pictures I did put in attachment and for those who have access to Falcon's site see Foto-ID 3695(Privat).
2/ Stfkpt and Number 1.
Using the Kracker list, I extracted, between more than 18000 datas, all the pilots who are said to have flown on a Bf109 and whose Bf109 are registered (in the Kracker list) by either a WNr., a Code Number, a Sktz, a WNr. + code Number, a Code number + Sktz, a WNr. + Sktz and WNr.+Code Number+Sktz. (Hope it's clear). I got a final list of 2716 Pilots having flown 3313 planes!
Between these:
- I found 295 Stfkpt with their respective planes having the charateristics described above.
-Among these 295 Pilot/plane 99 wears a Number Code 1(Blue, green, white, yellow, brown, black).
- For 78 no code number given.
- For 118 the code number isn't "1".
- And you can add 125 Pilot/plane for which a Code Number 1 is given without Stfkpt mention.
Personnaly I think that those Stfkpt having displayed a Number 1 are in large minority.
3/ Mr. Mombeeck picture:
Studying camouflage patches and other details I've shown elsewhere that the plane pictured in Mr. Mombeeck book and the one found on eBay are the same plane. Perhaps I've been a little bit rude and sarchastic with his caption (I'm sorry Mr. Mombeeck, I apologise) but as one of our forum friend wrote me, there is no obvious reason for him to have put a wrong Pilot's name in his caption. Perhaps just concerning the code number.
4/ Thenhelm picture.
I was, and still am, surprised no one dare to add comments concerning this picture showing a little bit wider part of a well known picture which is always captionned as "White 1". Obviously, now, it's not! Thenelm added that a "White 9" made sense considering following Philipp's plane. I should add, today, that a "White 10" makes more sense considering the points 1, 2, and 3, I developped in the present post. (If two numbers on code.)

I suppose - since I have no picture of it - Philipp flew a White 1, since all sources tend to agree with that. I'll be glad to see a picture showing clearly this "White 1". If not, This plane can be the VERY Philipp's "White 1" or a Philipp's "White 10"... of course as Stfkpt! (See point 1 of this post). And, of course, I didn't say that eBay/Mombeeck plane and Thenelm one are the same.

Regards,
Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello Franck,

very interesting cases and possibilities of this Hans Philipp's 109 !

Nice prints attached ! Is there a relation between this a/c on a beach and a date ?

Sincerely

bertrand

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay
 

Hello Bertrand,
No, I found nothing for the moment concerning this beached Bf109.
Regards, Franck.

Re: Hans Philipp Bf109E-3 on eBay