Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

I would be interested to know if anyone has identified the site where the 13 Stukas of i./St.G.76 led by Hauptmann Sigel (who survived) crashed on the range at Neuhammer, now in Poland. (51deg 28min N, 15deg 24min E).

Fooling around with Google Earth I found a group of holes west of Neuhammer, and marked the location on a 1937 aerial photograph published to the web by the Bundesarchiv.
The chances of this being the spot can be discounted, but it would be interesting to know if anyone has dug up the Stuka remains.

I notice my annotation of the 1937 photo has not come out; it should be just north of the second P in Truppen.

Tony

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Hi Tony, can you supply any further information as to this tragedy.
I have not heard of this incident before. When did this happen?
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Seems that the Wn are partially known

Remi

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Certainly Steve. The following is from various sources,

On August 15, 1939, I./St.G.76 led by Hauptmann Sigel and I./St.G.2"Immelmann" under Hauptmann Hitschold, were ordered to demonstrate dive-bombing on the Neuhammer range to Generals von Manstein, von Richthofen, Sperrle and Loerzer.
Over Neuhammer, which is at 137 metres elevation, it was 7/10 cloudy above 900 metres, but underneath it was clear. A ground mist suddenly developed but Gruppe was not informed. Sigel with his I./St.G.76, started their dive through cloud. At the last moment Sigel saw the danger, radioed a warning, and pulled up from close to the ground. But 13 Stukas with 26 crew members crashed without survivors. Eleven Stukas went straight in, while two hit the ground during pull-out. The Immelmann Gruppe saw the danger and returned to base.

Neuhammer, now called Świętoszów, is in the lower Silesian Voivodeship, 125 kms west of the regional capital, Wroclaw.

The German Army created a large training ground here in the 19th century. In WWI it was the site of a large Russian POW camp. In WWII Stalag VIII-E was built here for Polish and French prisoners. In 1942 they were replaced with Soviet prisoners, and the camp was placed under the administration of Stalag VIII-C near Żagań. At least 50,000 Soviet prisoners died here from disease, starvation and inhumane treatment, the last 200 of them killed as traitors after the war by the NKVD. It was a Red Army base until 1992, and today is occupied by the Polish Army.

Tony

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Many thanks for the interesting story Tony.
What an absolute tragedy!

Remi, do you have on hand any W.Nr's known?

Kindest regs,
Steve.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Hi Steve, here goes.

Ju 87 B-1 0433 S1+BL
Ju 87 B-1 5177 S1+GL
Ju 87 B-1 5170 S1+CL
Ju 87 B-1 5172 S1+DL
Ju 87 B-1 5176 S1+FL
Ju 87 B-1 5168 S1+GK
Ju 87 B-1 0411 S1+AL
Ju 87 B-1 5202 S1+MK
Ju 87 B-1 5121 S1+KK
Ju 87 B-1 xxxx S1+BB (as "81BB" in document) 2 crew light injured but a/c. w/o
Ju 87 B-1 0403 S1+DK
Ju 87 B-1 5165 S1+FK

All other (22) crew killed, aircraft destroyed. Cause given as "Bodenebel" (ground fog), "absturz im Wald" (crashed in Forest). Yes, tragic indeed.

cheers
ed

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Yes, tragic indeed.

Maybe not for the Poles that would have been on the receiving end a fortnight later.
But that's a point of view.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

The chances are, surely, that the aircraft remains are still in situ.
The Germans would not have dug them up as the cause of loss was known, although they would have recovered the bodies I assume. The Russian and Polish armies probably knew/know nothing of these events, and wouldn't be interested if they did.

The immediate site is safe since the Stukas were carrying not HE but practice smoke bombs.
But the range itself will be covered in military detritus including live ordnance left over a period of 130+ years. It is bound to be a restricted area.

I seem to remember there's someone on this board reassembling a Stuka. If he's short of bits, this site would seem to be the place to dig if someone could remember where on the range they went in, and if the Polish Army would give permission.
That's a lot of 'ifs'.
One clue that could narrow the choice of crash-site location could be the 'absturz im Wald' mentioned by Ed North. I can't see any trees using Google Earth, although I haven't looked closely, but there would be records showing where trees were in 1939, and they might be visible on the original 1937 Neuhammer aerial photograph held by the BundesArchiv.

Tony

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Evening Ed, many thanks for the superb information on the a/c lost.

May i ask your source?
Are there any crew names mentioned.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

"Statitsche Zusammenstellung der Únfalle im Flugbetrieb des Jahres ...<month, year to month, year >.. nach flugmedizinschen Geschictspunten" (medical orianted statistical research lists) compiled by DVL Berlin-Adlershof (i.e. compiled in pre-war and wartime Germany for periods 01.1936 to 12.1942. As last months (07-12.1942) were compiled and issued and dated 06.06.44 I doupt more were done.

This usually giving (per month), code, type and general details of what happened, four catagories of injures to personnel, three catagories of damage to aircraft and in-quite-a-detail the injures sustained to each person/s - in rare cases only W.Nr. are given - unusually enought both in the case of the Ju 87´s. No names or units are included.

I do not have name of library or the reference number to these, but they apparently coming from some microfilm in the USA - Stamped "Unclassified" "Library Copy" (marked "UM645") - if that lights up any brains over there.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Many thanks Ed, i think i know what records you are refering to.

Kindest regs,
Steve.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

This is an old thread, but:

I - Have someone ever found if wreckages of those machines are still buried at Neuhammer-am-Queis?

II - The list below do show us only 12 machines. What were the code and werknummer of the 13th?

Ju 87 B-1 0433 S1+BL
Ju 87 B-1 5177 S1+GL
Ju 87 B-1 5170 S1+CL
Ju 87 B-1 5172 S1+DL
Ju 87 B-1 5176 S1+FL
Ju 87 B-1 5168 S1+GK
Ju 87 B-1 0411 S1+AL
Ju 87 B-1 5202 S1+MK
Ju 87 B-1 5121 S1+KK
Ju 87 B-1 xxxx S1+BB (as "81BB" in document) 2 crew light injured but a/c. w/o
Ju 87 B-1 0403 S1+DK
Ju 87 B-1 5165 S1+FK

All other (22) crew killed, aircraft destroyed. Cause given as "Bodenebel" (ground fog), "absturz im Wald" (crashed in Forest). Yes, tragic indeed.

III - Are the names of the crewmembers known?

I know that Oberleutnant Eppen, Müller and Goldmann were amongst those KIA, but what about the other airmen's names?

IV - Where were they buried?

Baumgartner

Crash-site location of 13 Stukas on film?
 

It seems quite possible that this mass accident was kept on film by some PK (Propagandakompanie) for this was a very official demonstration for the eyes of several high-ranking generals. "IF" the film(s) has/have survived it could contain some useful clues. Ask BA-MA?

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Or ECPAD,

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

This is a list of the personnel losses, but unfortunately there is no connection between these names and the aircraft lost. Also their position (FF or BF) in not known to me. Of course it may be obvious that all officers were pilots, but there are only 7 of them.

Uffz Bledau, Walter, +
Ogfr Brandt, Arthur, +
Uffz Braun, Franz, +
Uffz Brend'amour, Josef, +
Uffz Doths, Hermann, +
Uffz Gade, Wilhelm, +
Olt Giesse, Rudolf, +
Olt Goldmann, Josef, +
Gefr Heinke, Fritz, +
Uffz Hess, Manfred, +
Uffz Knorr-Duckwitz, Willi, +
Uffz Lange, Wilhelm, +
Uffz Meyer, Walter, +
Lt Molenaar, Otto, +
Olt Müller, Fritz, +
Gefr Noack, Friedrich, +
Uffz Oberle, Emil, +
Fw Proch, Max, +
Gefr Schweizer, Franz, +
Uffz Staiger, Karl, +
Olt Stehle, Adelwald, +
Lt Tietze, Friedrich, +
Lt Vorlauf, Reinhold, +
Uffz Walter, Hellmuth, +
Uffz Wielandt, Werner, +
Gefr Winter, Franz, +

Matti

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Brend'amour


Is ;


Blend d'amour ?


or


Brin d'amour ?


Rémi

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

MATTI,

Again, my gratitude for your most helpful contribution and information.

I have seen on other links some wreckage scattered amongst the woods...possibly of those machine who tried to avoid the trees and were not on a vertical dive, but trying to put their nose up...so, at least (it seems so) some of the wreckage remained not so deep onto the ground (and could be easily recovered by the LW teams later). Of course, perhaps one or more machines indeed crashed vertically without timing to recover from the vertical to horizontal (or positiv climb)...those may remain deeply and tightly (not scattered) on the ground...Perhaps one of the Poles Historians or Archeologists do try to find them....who knows if something still remains.

A most interesting thread indeed....and a sad loss of lives.

Baumgartner

PK-photos? - Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Sorry I forgot to add that most probably PK-photographers equipped with long lenses were there too. That was foolish of me.

Somehow I feel the survival of photographs is more likely than for film footage but you never know.

So: ask BA-MA or ECPAD?

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Hi gents,



As far I know (but 100% sure) the story was told in Udet biography.


Regards,
Franck.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Hello,

IIRC this topic was already discussed. It seems the Stuka dived into the sandy soil (as hard as rock) so, most probably, any wreckage buried, only splashed. My two cents, based on aircraft recovery.

ClinA-78

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Eisenbach & Dauselt, "Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfflugzeuge gegen Polen, Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940", p. 22, has a photo showing wreckage of one of the crashed Ju87s. Pictured is a fin/rudder (surprisingly intact), part of a horizontal tailplane, and parts of 2 u/c legs. Photo from Eisenbach collection.
HTH, Richard

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Hello,

I can remember (many moons ago), reading an account of the Stuka incident at Neuhammer in the following book:

The Luftwaffe War Diaries.
Bekker,Cajus
London:Macdonald,1968 (2nd imp.)
pp.42-3

Col.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Hello,

Maybe those are the pictures you mentioned:
https://bobrzanie.pl/2012/05/14/kata...-swietoszowie/

Baumgartner

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Good evening !

You may gain some additional information about the incident in the book of Helmut Mahlke on pages 41 - 42.
The book's title is:
Mahlke, Helmut,
Stuka: Angriff: Sturzflug.
1993 by Verlag E. S. Mittler & Sohn GmbH, Herford
ISBN 3-8132-0425-1

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Pictures:

https://polska-org.pl/5622466,Swieto...rs_Ju_87B.html


Text:

https://www.wikizero.com/de/Neuhammer_Stuka-Unglück

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

Just a rather unimportant detail: I don't think a relatively intact fin after a bad crash is surprising. You can see this very often on photographs and in TV reports etc. The explanation is that in most cases where aircraft were/are smashed to smithereens they crash nose/engine first, tail and fin last, the tailplane often being severed (separeted from the rest) by the terrible shock. Being much lighter than other parts like engine, guns, landing gear etc. the tailplane has much less kinetic energy and in many cases it just falls off or flies a short distance away. This is still valid today from light turism propeller aircraft to the latest combat AC.

Re: Crash-site location of 13 Stukas?
 

att. Adriano Baumgartner, post nr. 23:
Yes, the photo in the book is the first one in the link you posted. The second photo is not in the book.
Richard