April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

At April 26 46 2 P-61, Black Widow were shot down by friendly fire north of Augsburg. One was the Black Widow with the serial # 42-39559, documented MACR 14078.
The second one crashed behind the lines and therefore no MACR is available but I belive it was the plane with the serial # 42-39670 but not sure. Plane belonged to 415th Night Fighter Squadron.
Is there any info available? Crew bailed out but no names availabe yet.
Every info is welcomed

Thanks in advance

Rolf

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Good Morning Rolf !

P-61, AAF s/n 42-39670 left the U.S. for Europe on February 7th, 1945. It was assigned to 415th NFS on February 15th, 1945. The a/c fell to storage on June 2nd, 1945 and was stricken off duty at February 8th, 1946.

All the best,

Horst Weber

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hello Horst,

thanks for this info.
Hope I can find the correct plane which was shot down April 26th.

Rolf

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi,

interesting information - really in 29th April 1946 ? That was some night mission about vicinity of Augsburg ?

Faenor

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi Faenor,

sorry, it was April 26th 1945.

Thanks for your remark.
Hope somebode can help. Perhaps there is a list of all losses of P-61.

Thanks
Rolf

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi Rolf,

Sounds like an aircraft of the 417th NFS, which went operational with the P-61 on 24 April, 1945. There's a note in "Queen of the Night Skies" that one of their aircraft was lost to friendly flak while protecting the bridgeheads at Ulm, Dillingen and Donauwoerth - just the right area.

There's no note of a second aircraft (though I recall "reading somewhere" that it was *three* aircraft lost this way!), nor of serial number. I'll have a squizz at Joe Baugher's site.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Some info here - apparently the second P-61 was hit by friendly AAA fire but struggled back to Giebelstadt, another crashed on landing after a similar patrol on the same night:

http://forum.armyairforces.com/tm.as...mpage=1#180119

The one written off in the crash at Giebelstadt was 42-39420: see this page (which I think has been "lifted" from Joe Baugher's site...)

http://napoleon130.tripod.com/p61blackwidow/id23.html

Looks like the other aircraft (hit by AAA fire, returned on one engine, crew unhurt) must have gone back on ops / been disposed of at some other time.

Maybe try posting in the Army Air Forces Forum thread - "Brickeisel" has written a history of Beaufighters in US service, knows his way around the 417th NFS.

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi Max,

thanks for your feed back. Seems to be difficult to find out the real details. When I read page 5 of the MACR there is clearly stated that 2 planes were shot down at Bridge head Dillingen by friendly AAA. One of 417th NFS (Cartmell) and the other one belonged to 415th NFS.

Hope I can find it out.

Thanks again
Rolf

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi,

I loaned my USAAF microfilm reel on 415 Squadron to Jerry Scutts in the UK. Apparently he died and his collection went to the Imperial War Museum? No doubt, among this material is my microfilm reel and photos loaned to him.

Norman Malayney

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi Norman,
very interesting. What can we do to get back your micro film? Is it possible to order a other one in the National Archives in US?

Regards
Rolf

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

According to the 417th NFS' history and an interview with one of the surviving crews, the 417th lost three (3) P-61s that night.

P-61 (I didn't write down the tail #s) crewed by Lts T.E. Cartwell, pilot, and H.A. Anderson, R/O, were shot down and killed by friendly AA.

Their patrol was assumed by P-61 crewed by Lts H.J. Allen, pilot, and Frank Campbell, R/O. They were hit by friendly AA but recovered at Y-90, Geiberlstadt.

A third P-61 crashed at the conclusion of their patrol but the crew walked away.

Brick
author, Beaufighters in the Night, 417th NFS, USAAF

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi Brick,

thanks for your feed back. I'm living in the area where Cartmells P-61 crashed.
I'm very interested where the third P-61 you mentiond crashed. There must be an additional crash in the same area either from 417th NFS or 415th. Crash site most probably located but no evidence on plane.
Therefore any additional help would be great.
Are there some photos of Cartmells crew in your book?

Thanks
Rolf

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hello Rolf, I'm new to the forum but know a little about P61s. Part numbers should start (according to resources at 'aviationarchaeology,com') with 51 or 513, 516, 517. I have a piece of P61 coded 513062-2 which is part of the gunner's seat. Good luck, Ian.

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

I thought our resident expert on friendly fire incidents would have been all over this query.

Where are you Brian?

Stephen

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

Hi guys

Stephen, I am not an 'expert' on friendly fire incidents but am collecting material for my 'friendly fire' series.

There is so much of which I am unaware, this incident - or series of incidents - being 'new' to me. Therefore I am very interested but cannot add anything of substance.

However, I am hopeful that Volume I of said series (covering 1940 only) will be available by spring.

Cheers
Brian

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

On April 26, 1945, P-61B-10-NO, AAF SN 42-39559, was shot down by friendly fire at approximately 2130. It was from the 417th NFS, flying out of Giebelstadt, Germany, flying a night intruder mission in defense of the Ulm-Dillingen Bridgehead. The location of the crash site was recorded as "Vicinity Altishein, Germany T 30821"

The pilot was 2LT Thomas E. Cartmell USAAF (my uncle), flying his first combat mission. IDPF records suggest a catastrophic crash and burn. The radar operator was 2LT Hal Anderson, who bailed out before the crash but because of the low altitude, his parachute did not fully deploy and he was killed on impact. Tom is buried at the AMC in St. Avold, France, and Hal was buried in the U.S.

More details of the loss, plus transcribed letters of Lieutenant Cartmell during his training and wartime service can be found at https://brooksidepress.org/cartmell/

Mike Hughey

Re: April 26th Shot down of 2 P-61 by friendly fire
 

I am a nephew of LT Thomas E Cartmell USAAF, the pilot of the P-61B that was shot down by American friendly fire on April 26, 1945, while on a night intruder mission over the Dillingen Bridgehead. After reviewing the burial records contained in his IDPF file, the site of the crash was identified as in the vicinity of Altishein, T 308201 (military map coordinates). I had a knowledgable friend help me translate this location into contemporary coordinates of 48.73777 10.87816. Tom was initially buried in the German military cemetery in Reutti. His remains were later moved to the US military cemetery in St. Avold, France.

I have produced a website that provides more detail about the incident, and moreover a collection of all of his wartime letters written to his family. I've also posted all of the related documents (flight logs, etc.) that belonged to him or were related to him. You can view this site at https://brooksidepress.org/cartmell/