Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Bit of a strange request but I am sure Maestro Vasco will know but where would the flare pistol be stored in a Bf 110 and who would usually/normally operate it?

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Sorry that it's not John responding, but I also have a vague understanding of the Bf110. All Bf110F/G Manuals, Part 0 (General info) agree that the "flare pistol, its ammunition, and gas masks are all installed in the observer's cockpit."

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

For those who might not have seen the flare pistol I attach a photo taken some weeks ago. You will also see remains of a MG 17 and the pilot's dagger, which belonged to Erich Groth. With his Bordfunker Herbert Muche the crashed their Bf 110 E-1, M8+KC August 12 1941 in Fødalen in Ål, Norway.
Marry Christmas from Oslo!
Carl

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Thanks George. Does anyone have a schematic/photo as to where it would have been stowed?

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

From Bf 110 analysis
no draw for moment
Bsrg, Dan

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

I have yet to find a photo or drawing of the internal stowage location for the flare gun, but the firing port is as shown in this photo from "Walk Around. Messerschmitt Bf 110G. No. 24" page 26.

Attachment 4041

Hope this helps, and Merry Christmas.
George

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Chris

You need to also consider that apart from any on-board flare pistol (I think there was sometimes more than one, anyway) there was also another stowed in an equipment tin contained within the dinghy pack. The tin contained rations, rum and various other bits of survival kit. So, the specific item you are interested in could have been souvenired from there or the cockpit on that particular 110 I would imagine. However, the dinghy pack example might have been rather less accessible!

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Thanks Andy-didn't get away then? I had considered that but looking at the wear on the pistol, it appears to have been in regular use thus accessible as opposed to unaccessible in a dinghy pack

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Chris

Yes...despite the best efforts of Eurotunnel we finally got to the Alps three days late! Skiiing good. Travel less so.

You are probably right about the signal pistol. I suspect the dinghy pack example would have not been regularly used, if at all. My money would certainly be on it having come from the cockpit. A pity I don't any longer have a trail back to the original source!

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

I think it was 4 flare guns in a Me 110. One in the the pilots leg pocket(kanalhose),one in the cockpit flare gun barrel(flare gun holder),one in the "Notsignalbehalter" in the rubber survival boat and one dobble barrel luftwaffe flare gun and code signal flare cartidges (ESN patronen) in the radio operator,s lether case.The radio operator got new ESN cardidges every day,before mission,the code in the cartidge told other aircraft or ground control that you are a friend if the radio systems was dead.

Regards from Norway

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Junker

I have never seen instances of the double-barrel flare gun being found in Me 110's brought down over the UK and none have ever been found in any excavated wrecks in the UK. That is not to say they were not sometimes used - and I have seen a double barrel flare pistol recovered from the wrerck of a Ju 88 in Portsmouth Harbour.

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

The SLD flare gun was used in Ju 52,He 111 and Ju 88 in Norway 1940,its a little bit strange if this type flare gun not was used in a Me 110.I found some information about the dobble barrel flare gun in a book for long time ago(i dont remember witch book),there you could read :The dobble barrel flare gun was used in all German multi engined aircrafts.Its a little bit strange if the Me 110 didn,t use this type multi code signalsystem from a dobble barrel flare gun,when it was used in the other multi engined aircrafts,but perhaps you have right Andy,interesting information you have.I think the flare gun was one of the first items germans removed from the downed aircraft,or relic hunters after the war,but perhaps some repports or information from old german crew members from a Me 110 will give us the best answer.

Best regards

Norway

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello gents,

It may be interesting albeit a little bit late.
I have just received a double-barrelled flare gun (Fl.24483) coming from a Bf 110 crashsite, more precisely from Bf 110 G-4 WNr.6282 3C+WB from 3./NJG 4. The aircraft crashed SE Hirson (North of France) on the 15-16/07/43. It was flown by Hptm. Paul-Hubert RAUH.
This rare artefact survived incredibly the crash (with the shock the 'pontet' was crushed by the aperture lever) only 'robbed' by a French 'souvenir hunter'.
I have some questions:

1°) Was this Leuchtpistole normally operated by the bordfunker (it rests generally in his leather case) or by the bordschutze through a special aperture (doubtful)?

2°) It was said - in a previous thread -that this Bf 110 was claimed by F/O Harold White of 141 Sqn (Beaufighter?). I would like to have a confirmation of this claim please.

Thank you of your attention.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

In a heinkel 111 the SLD flare gun was a part of the communication equippment,the aircraft radio operator got the code flares and flare gun in a leather case or a little wood box before mission.The flare code system vas used when other communication system was none operative.This information i got from a old KG100 pilot,he flew his Heinkel in norway in april 1940.it was possible to opend some of the small cockpit frame windows,i think one of this windows was used if use of flare gun was wanted.

You have pictures of the flare gun ?

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello,

I hope the pic will be attached. If so, enjoy.
Note the bent aperture lever.

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Thank you !
Late produced SLD,probably made by Emil Eckholdt Suhl,the logo are a circle with name ECKO inside.Often you have year of production and luftwaffe accept stamp the same place above the grip.Nice condition to be a wreck relic.

Best regards from cold Norway

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello ClinA-78
I am new here and this is my first post, because I happen to run into your post while looking for information about 141 Squadron.
Not sure if this is still relevant, this post is about a year old, but I think I can confirm that this 110 was indeed shot down by F/O Harold (Harry) White together with his navigator Michael Allen. The name Rauh sounds familar from what I read in Michael Allen's book "Pursuit through darkened skies". I need to get back with you later this weekend, need to look it up in the book, and can then also tell you if it was with a Beau or a Mosquito they flew in.
Cheers
Jos

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

any info always appreciated!

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello again

I can confrim that Major Paul-Hubert Rauh was indeed shot down by (then) P/O's Harry White and his navigator-radar operator Michael Allen. It was their very first victory and they flew in Beaufighter VIF, V8713. They flew a long range nightfighter support mission for 165 Halifaxes that were attacking the Peugeot factory in Montbeliard a suburb of Sochaux in France. In the books that I found this information in, the name Herbert Rauh is used which is incorrect of course. His name is indeed Paul-Hubert Rauh. You can find a autographed picture of Rauh here: http://www.nostalgicaviation.com/New...ert%20Rauh.jpg

Harry White and Mike Allen would become the highest scoring nightfighter/intruder team in 141 Sqn by the end of the war, mostly flying the Mosquito NFII equipped with Serrate and AI MKIV radar.

Hope this will be of some interest to you.

Greets
Jos

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello Jos,

I presume this info comes from "Beaufighter Aces of WW2" (Osprey edition), where there is an extract of the combat report (p.30).
A good friend of mine has corresponded with Rauh so I don't need to break my moneybox for picture!

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello ClinA

No, the information comes straight out of "Pursuit through darkened skies" written by Michael Allen, the navigator/radaroperator himself. Very good book that I can recommend. Published by Airlife in 1999. Also included in "Confounding the Reich", the history of 100 Group, Bomber Command by Martin Bowman.

Best wishes
Jos

Re: Bf 110 Signal Pistol Storage
 

Hello,

I have just received the second (at least!) flare pistol 'recovered' from Hptm. Rauh's Bf 110 G-2 crashsite (cf. previous post).

The WNr.6282 engraved on the barrel is truly remarkable and proves the origin of this nice preserved artefact (despite the mid-air explosion!). The Walther was perhaps part of the survival kit.
Both will be now preserved together.

Enjoy

ClinA-78