Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hello,

Who knows which stories are hidden behind these photos of spitfire?
Spitfire Serial 3108 or...? http://cgi.ebay.de/007-2x-O-Foto-abg...item1e59e0192f
Spitfire YT°F serial P7?37 unsure http://cgi.ebay.de/005-2x-O-Foto-abg...item1e59e01902
http://cgi.ebay.de/004-2x-O-Foto-abg...item20aed516e6
Spitfire JU°? serial P7524 ? :confused: http://cgi.ebay.de/006-3x-O-Foto-abg...item1e59e01919
http://cgi.ebay.de/003-Orig-Foto-abg...item20aed516df
Spitfire AZ°K serial? http://cgi.ebay.de/036-O-Foto-Bergun...item20aed164ff
http://cgi.ebay.de/037-2x-Orig-Foto-...item1e59dc374e

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

YT-F of 65 Sqn is likely to be Spitfire II P7733 which was shot down on 5th Feb 1941. Sgt HC Orchard Age 24 was killed and buried at Neufchatel-Hardelot.

Source - RAF Fighter Command Losses 1939-41 by Norman Franks

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Spitfire JU of 111 Sqn is actually P7824 if you look closely, which failed to return from a Fighter Sweep on evening of 19th August 1941. The pilot P/O JA Timmis was made a POW.

Source - RAF Fighter Command Losses 1939-41 by Norman Franks

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

AZ-K of 234 Sqn is harder to trace.

I am guessing is a Spitfire II and that the photo dates from 1941 from its camo and rough appearance; the A and Z are possibly not the same size, the individual letter K could have been changed and there is sloppy paint work on the band around the rear fuselage that has covered over the serial number. 234 Sqn got Spitfire Mk V later in the year which would probably have looked neater.

Assuming that the aircraft crash landed and the pilot became a POW my guess is that this aircraft is P8395 flown by Sgt Martin and lost to Bf 109s on an ASR escort on 17th July 1941. Although Sgt Martin was listed as Missing it transpired that he crash landed in France or close to the shore and became a POW.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

AZ-K is clearly a Supermarine or Westland built Mk V.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Voytech - your a better man than me for knowing AZ-K was a Mk V. What identifying points did you spot in the photos?

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hello Larry,

Thanks a lot for your precisions. The reported facts are very interesting.
Looking closely at YT°F's serial, seems to me that the last two cyphers are 37 and not 33. Any other possibility, in this case?
Regarding the "unknown" serial on the barge, it seems effectively that this peculiar spifire has been picked out of the sea by a recovery german unit. So, it may be P8395.
Alongside the photos of AZ°K on ebay, there are photos (from same batch) of a recovered Bf109-F and of a Whitley after what looks like an in water emergency landing.
http://cgi.ebay.de/040-2x-O-Foto-eng...item20aed1718f
http://cgi.ebay.de/039-Orig-Foto-eng...item1e59dc3761
http://cgi.ebay.de/038-Orig-Foto-eng...item1e59dc3757
http://cgi.ebay.de/042-3x-O-Foto-Gef...item1e59dc3775
http://cgi.ebay.de/041-O-Foto-Gefang...item20aed1719b

And finally, Larry, any suggestion concerning the first one spitfire : W3108 ?
http://cgi.ebay.de/007-2x-O-Foto-abg...item1e59e0192f

Regards,

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

I am pretty sure that YT-F is P7697 in which Kay William crashed on August 21st 1941.

/John

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

I agree with John - Sgt William Kay was KIA with 65 Sqn and the second from last number could certainly be a 9.

Regarding Spitfire W3108 - this in fact did not exist as the batch started at W3109!!!! Also I could not actually see the serial number in the photo, so its hard to help on this one.

As for the Whitley I have not yet found a possible ID for it but I enjoyed looking! It is fun to make sweeping generalisations too - so here goes:

Firstly we need to find a Whitley that came down in the sea near to German held territory, where at least three of the crew were captured, as three crewmen are seen in the photo. This discounts many A/cs that were lost without trace with their crews. Also the photos captions roughly translated say jokingly 'boat required for England' and also 'Guernsey Prisoner' which obviously connects it to the Channel Islands. After all the photographer is hardly likely to put that on the photo if the plane came down near Holland or NW Germany. Ideally a bombing mission to Brest and other ports in Brittany would give a reason to be near Guernsey. However Bomber Command Losses does recount how one aircraft heading back to Leeming from Germany crashed out of fuel 22 miles SW of Pembroke, so nothing is impossible.

Looking at the photo of the Whitley I thought that it might be all black in colour, without the usual green and brown camo - and this scheme was used by 10 Sqn Whitleys for a time in 1941 and yet so far I cannot find any in Bomber Command Losses that fit the 'facts' from that Sqn or any of the others for 1940-1942. However some entries in BCL are similar to 'lost without trace but crew later confirmed as POW' so unless Bill Chorley received further info it will remain as such.

Next area for searching will be OTU losses which I think will give the answer!

Lastly could you post the link for the Bf 109F from eBay.de as it may relate to 17th July 1941 which I am interested in relating to Blenheim P4832

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Re the Whitley being recovered, it does seem as if it was out of fuel as none of the propellor blades look bent back as I think they would be if running when ditching.
Strangely, the undercarriage appears to have been down, I don't think as a result of being winched up, perhaps they landed on some mud flats or beach?
Also the nose is covered by what appears to be a fishing net, maybe a couple of days later a trawler snagged its net and found the Whitley when the tide went out?
If it is all black, then maybe another part of the net is draped over the rear fuselage?
It certainly looks in remarkably undamaged condition, although there is a large ragged hole in the starboard wing just past the engine mount, and both rudders look damaged.
One crew member also appears to have a large bandage on his head.
Very fetching footwear, presumably he lost his flying boots and someone lent him their slippers!!

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hello,

Thank you all for searching and finding all these precisions.
Most interesting.
Regardind the W serial, the photo is reported as beeing that of a spitfire shot down in Belgium.
http://cgi.ebay.de/007-2x-O-Foto-abg...item1e59e0192f
As to the serial itself, if not W3108, it looks possibly like W3109 (first serial for Mk V series, if not wrong)... don't you think?

@ Larry
May be not the right place for Luftwaffe but here are the links. But if it may be of help...
http://cgi.ebay.de/045-Orig-Foto-Flu...item1e59dc58e8
http://cgi.ebay.de/043-Orig-Foto-Flu...item1e59dc58ce
http://cgi.ebay.de/044-Orig-Foto-Flu...item20aed19765

Regards,

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hallo all,

Yes it does look like W3108, or even N3108. However those markings are the wrong size and in the wrong position for the Air Ministry serial number.

Is it possible they are an example of the many stencils applied to Spitfires ? Marking specialists required here.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

No wonder I failed to spot the 'serial number as I was not expecting to see it under the tailplane, as Martin has pointed out! Having said that though, there are plenty of examples of irregular markings in the RAF and even painting over the serial number as in Spitfire AZ-K was not 'by the book'. Another explanation is that the 'W3109' is a makers marking, put on the aircraft at the factory before it was painted according to Air Ministry requirements. Perhaps all Spitfires had their serial painted on or within them in this way! The fire from the crash could have burnt away the top camo paint.

W3109 was a Mk Vb with 54 Sqn and was shot down on 17.09.41 on Circus 95 to Marzingarbe (on French Belgium border). The pilot Sgt RA Overson was KIA and buried at Dunkirk.

54 Sqn used the codes KL at this time but these do not show in the photo. However as a Vb this aircraft would have had cannons and it looks like one cannon may be seen in the wing leading edge (on the right hand side of the second photo).

I'm going to stick my neck out and say it is W3109

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Lastly regarding the Whitley I think it is Z6795 of 10 OTU which was on an AS Patrol over the sea on 21.09.1942 when it ran out of fuel. It was recovered by the Germans and all the crew made POW.

Your photos from eBay fit the photo I have attached from 'The Whitley File' by Air Britain in that the aircraft is all over black and has fishing net over the front turret. Z6795 carried the code letters JL - W and although these cannot be clearly seen, their worn out appearance is the same in each photo.

So it would seem that the Whitley came down near Guernsey and once recovered was taken to another port by barge such as Brest, and no doubt the POWs went via France to captivity.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

That's what I was trying to let you understand Larry! :-)
Hope my ebay findings have been of interest...including the Bf109-F photos?

Regards,

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

The windscreen is of the later design with integral bullet-proof panel. No Mk II or Mk I ever had this. Very few (if any) CBAF-built Mk Vs had this before the change to "C" type roundels in mid-1942. Anyway, the fuselage roundel position is as applied by Supermarines and Westlands, not CBAF.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hi VoyTech,

Could it be the same aircraft? Assuming it is, we do have a better view on the windsreen!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=220186202808

Regards,

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

.... more fishing net - looks a bit far from the sea this time!!! :D

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

New stories behind these photos?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-Abgestuerzte...item58856f580c
http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-Abgestuerzte...item58856f5193

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

The first of the new photos you have attached is a Spitfire Mk VC of 92 Sqn in the Western Desert. The Sqn had still used QJ code letters since 1940. The Sqn arrived in the Middle East in April 1942 but only got the Mk VC in August 1942 so the photo dates from then onwards.

The second photo looks like a VC aircraft from the same Sqn though its hard to read the codes. The QJ appears to be in the same place as before with the Q over the door.

Looking at the terrain I would say that this was taken in the deserts of Egypt or Libya in 1942 before the Axis retreated to Tunisia

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

I believe it may be the same QJ°E aircraft with and without bent left wing.
Details make me think so (paint sheme, small access door in the wing root, bush in the background, top of white E partially hidden by the bent wing...).

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

I agree the damage to the leading edge of the wing root looks the same on each and its logical that the wing would have eventually dropped. The terrain is the same too.

I wonder if 92 Sqn had a habit of painting the aircraft letter in White when the codes look to be a much duller colour.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Spitfire: Some precisions on the fate of KL°B ?
http://cgi.ebay.de/013-O-Foto-englis...item1e5a65c97f
http://cgi.ebay.de/014-O-Foto-englis...item20af68bad3
http://cgi.ebay.de/034-Orig-Foto-eng...item1e5a65f438

Hurricane : what else?
http://cgi.ebay.de/033-Orig-Foto-eng...item20af68ee8c

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hi,

The Spitfire KL-B is actually the N3180 from 54 Squadron. P/O Alan Deere crashed on the beach of Oostduinkerke (Belgium) on the morning of 28/5/1940.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

The Hurricane on the beach is probably the one of P/O Dryden (US-T/N2659) shot down on 29/5/1940.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Thanks for precisions, Montana. :)
And who knows about this Spit? YQ°D Serial P8500 Place? Date? Events?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Flugzeug-Jaeger-E...item3a57f14f87

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Spitfire IIa P8500 of 616 Sqn was shot down by Bf 109 and crash landed at Gravelines (near Dunkirk) while on an escort to Short Stirlings attacking Lille on 6th July 1941. The pilot Sgt J McCairns was at first a POW but later escaped from Stalag Luft IXC and returned to the UK via Spain.

A nice photo and good to see one without red paint all over it for a change! I've reattached it here as it will be lost when the eBay sale ends.

Keep them coming!

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Tks Larry for historical background!
A new one: US°T ? Hurricane said to have been shot down near Dunkirk...more precisions?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-engl-Jagdflu...item5d282b4e9c

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

This is a harder one to trace. It belongs to 56 Sqn. However, 56 Sqn ORB did not seem to record individual codes - otherwise Norman Franks would have listed them in 'RAF Fighter Command Losses'.

Its likely the pilot either evaded or was made POW - unless of course he died of wounds shortly after making a relatively safe landing (unlikely).

The aircraft is not from the first series production starting with L1547 to L2146 as these had fabric wings.

At a guess I think it might be N2659 that force landed 29th May 1940 on the beaches and the pilot PO KC Dryden returned by boat.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

May be the same one, US°T ?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-engl-Flugzeu...item5d282b4dac
...and a spit colleague?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-engl-Flugzeu...item5d282b4c8a

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hi
currently on e bay item 220559787924
nice photo but seems no info
cheers
Jerry

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

If not wrong... Boston III RH°F (serial Z2231) from 88 SQN RAF.
Crash landing in the vicinity of Lille on 19 july 1942.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hi
awesome, I thought no one would know anything.
cheers
jerry

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Cheers jerry!

Spifire again: ZP°N possibly serial W3219
Who knows more?
http://cgi.ebay.de/038-Orig-Foto-Flu...item20afc20bae

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

The codes ZP identify this as 74 Sqn

This is interesting, as according to Air Britains RAF Aircraft W1000- Z9999 there was a gap in the production of ten Spitfire Mk V from W3216 to W3226. So W3219 did not exist, was never built and was never lost (well never say never!).

However its very likely to be W3210 which was lost to 74 Sqn on 27.6.41 flown by P/O WJ Sandman who was shot down and made POW while escorting Blenheims to Hazebrouck.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Twin engine bomber: VN°X Hampden?
Some precisions?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Franz-Bomber-Flug...item45f17332c6
http://cgi.ebay.de/RARITAT-Hollaendi...item45f173323a

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

This Hampden with codes VN-X is instantly identifiable as belonging to 50 Sqn and of the known Hampdens that were captuted more or less intact by the Germans, P2070 of 50 Sqn lost on 25th/26th August 1940 is the most likely candidate. In fact I think the serial number is just about readable as P2070. It ran out of fuel and landed at Lautersheim on a sortie to Berlin.

The other Hampdens that the Germans got hold of were L4146 QR-P and P4324 also QR-P both of 61 Sqn, AE265 of 144 Sqn PL-? and AT109 UB-C of 455 Sqn.

These details come from The Hampden File (Air Britain Publications) written by the late Harry Moyle (ex Hampden crew member, expert and friend).

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Not a good one photo but nevertheless interesting...
Spitfire SD°E
http://cgi.ebay.de/98-Flugzeug-Plan-...item519108c15f

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

This is actually a well known crash of a 501 Squadro Spitfire on the beach. Unfortunately, I don't have the date in front of me but it was in 1941.

Here's another puzzler that I've wondered about. It's a Mosquito FB VI on a dock in presumably France. No squadron letters visible.

Re: Which stories behind these photos?
 

Hurricane GZ°V ? Where? When?
http://cgi.ebay.de/ORIGINAL-Foto-Ita...item3efdafc747