238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

On page 352 on The Battle of Britain Then and Now there is a letter from Sgt Eric Bann of 238 Squadron. It looks to be dated before August 7th and after Mid July 1940 and only states it was written on a Friday !!
Sgt Bann says he took off with the C/O and two other pilots and engaged some bombers over the sea. He says quite clearly that he was shot down into the sea and after a long swim was picked up and landed at Portsmouth.
I can find no record of this incident at all.
Who shot him down ? what Hurricane was he flying ? date etc.....
All help appreciated.

Thanks
Jon

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

My uncle (Squadron Leader 'Jimmy' Fenton) took over as C/O of 238 Squadron on 15 July 1940, flying his first operational sorties with 238 on 17 July. I have just checked his logbook and personal notes and can find no entry which appears to relate to the incident referred to in Eric Bann's letter to his parents.

I can only assume that the events he described happened earlier in July in the company of the previous C/O, Squadron Leader Cyril Baines who was posted out to the Middle East on 15 July. My uncle's log book does not record that he was involved in jointly shooting down a bomber until 21 July but that was a Do.17 downed over Dorset.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hello,

This may help.

I dont have the name of the pilot but there was a 238 Sqdn Hurricane downed on the 5th of July 1940, P3703, dived into the ground at West Tedworth, Wilts.
Fate and Name of pilot ?

The next Sqdn loss was on the 13th, not him.

From Men of the BoB there is a photo.

He completed his flying training and joined 238 Squadron at Tangmere in June 1940. On August 11 he claimed a He 111 and on Sept 21 he shared a Ju88.

He was killed on Sept 28 when he baled from V6776 and his chute failed to open.

Night

Alex

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Re: no238sq Battle Of Britain

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your PM.

Taken from my uncle's log book, he flew the following 238 Hurricanes in action during July 1940. These are the entries in his log for that month after joining 238 Squadron on 15 July.

15 July practice 3805 - 0.50
15 July practice 2827 - 1.05
16 July practice 2946 - 0.55
17 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
17 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.55
17 July raid patrol 3767 - 1.00
17 July raid patrol 3767 - 1.25
17 July raid patrol 3767 - 0.35
18 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.15
18 July to Middle Wallop 3805 -0.15
19 July RT test 3805 - 0.10
21 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
21 July NF landing 3805 - 0.15
21 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.45
21 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.20 Do.17 destroyed
21 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.05
22 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.10
22 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.40
22 July to Middle Wallop 3805 - 0.20
25 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
25 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.15
25 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.50
25 July raid patrol 3219 - 0.40
26 July raid patrol 3219 - 1.00
26 July raid patrol 3219 - 0.55
26 July to Middle Wallop 3219 - 0.20
26 July raid patrol 3219 - 0.30
27 July raid patrol 3823 - 1.45
27 July raid patrol 3823 - 2.00 Bf.109 chased across Channel
27 July to Middle Wallop 3823 - 0.15
28 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
28 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.40
29 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.40
29 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.50
29 July to Middle Wallop 3805 - 0.20
29 July test 3805 - 0.20
30 July to Farnborough 3219 - 0.20
31 July to Warmwell 3219 - 0.20
31 July raid patrol 4047 - 0.20
31 July R/T test 4047 - 0.30

I'll post this in the forum in case any one else is interested. Cheers Nick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve sheridan
Hi Nick,
Just read your link on Twelve O' Clock High regarding
your uncle who commanded NO238SQ, during the BOB.
I wondered if you could possibly help me , with my
research on this squadron, and tell me what serial or code letters your uncles aircraft wore during july 1940.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Regards,
Steve Sheridan

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Thanks for the responses so far.

Does anyone have details on the 5th July shoot down, also if the aircraft landed in wiltshire is it possible the pilot ( Sgt Bann ) could have landed in the sea far enough out to require a long swim ??

I also ask the more experienced researchers if the lack of information recorded on incidents like Sgt Bann going into the sea are common ? I appreciate it was happening every day at this time and we were more concerned about the expected invasion than perhaps ensuring all was logged correctly?

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hello Jon,

Are you saying that the July 5th pilot was Sgt. Bann ?

Friday's for the period were -

10th May; 17th May; 24th May; 31st May.
7th June; 14th June; 21st June; 28th June.
5th July; 12th July; 19th July; 26th July.
2nd Aug; 9th Aug; 16th Aug; 23rd Aug; 30th Aug.

5th July aircraft was P3703.

But

If Sgt Bann was up on the 8th August that is when S/Ldr Fenton ditched in P2947. Is it possible that the content of the leter refers to this and not to Bann himself? the 8th was Thursday.

There does not seem to be any other 238 Hurricane that fits, unless Bann was in one borrowed from another unit, even so if it is the 5th then no other was lost that day AFAIK.

All the best

Alex

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

It was P/O B. FIRMINGER that flew into a 'stuffed cloud' at Tidworth 9.50 a.m. on 5 July 1940 in P3703.

Regarding S/L FENTON's aircraft on 8 August 1940, there is an annoying duplication in records that perhaps Nick de Carteret would kindly resolve from his uncle's Log Book. P2947 or P3823 ? It would be good to know for sure at long last. Many thanks.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Alex and Peter,

I can tell you quite a bit about 8th August but regretfully not the serial number of the Hurricane that my uncle ditched in the sea that day - his log book does not record any serials after 31 July, I guess things had hotted up to such an extent that minor details such as identification marks were just not relevant by this stage.

According to notes that I have found amongst his papers, Sgt.Bann did not participate in the 12 sorties that were ordered to intercept the raid on convoy "Peewit" on that date.

The twelve were: Fl/Lt Turner, PO Davis, FO Hughes, Sgt Marsh, Sgt Domagala, Sgt Batt, Fl/Lt Walch, PO Steborowski, Sgt Little, PO MacCaw, PO Cawse and Sgt Seabourne.

The rest I can only quote from his privately published memoirs:-

" On the 8th, as usual, we were at readiness at first light. After breakfast, my adjutant Noel David, fetched me to the office for a rare spell of administration. As soon as I left dispersal, the Squadron was scrambled - led by Stuart Walch, and went into action over a shipping convoy a few miles south of the Isle of White intercepting a big raid. During the scrap Eric Turner, the 'A' Flight Commmander was shot down. There was no rescue launch in the area so I went out to have a look for him - on my own, as all the others were being refuelled. I could not find any trace but, while searching, I spotted a German seaplane at sea level. I went down to attack, gave him a long burst but, being much faster, I overshot and his gunner must have got in a lucky one which cut an oil pipe. I turned North but shortly afterwards my engine seized. Having so little height, I had to ditch rather than bail out.
The propeller had stopped, I undid everything, harness and parachute straps, and to this day I can remember holding off above the waves. I was thrown clear but banged my head on the way out - probably on the reflector sight on the windscreen. My unpulled parachute was close by and was as buoyant as a lifebuoy so I bobbed about for half an hour, somewhat dazed from the bang on the head.
Fortunately, I had been seen by HMS Bassett, an Admiralty Armed Trawler. The skipper had been watching my approach, not knowing whether I was friend or foe. They took a bearing on the splash, steamed over and hauled me out. Not long after I was picked up, the convoy was bombed again. Soon afterwards the ship fished out another pilot and he turned out to be German. We shared the cabin for the rest of the day. He had a little English so we managed to converse to some extent. I remember that he hailed from Leipzig and was the pilot of a Bf 110. Like me he had to strip for his clothes to dry and his few possessions comprised a large pack of condoms. I do not know what he thought he was coming for - with the next five years as a POW!
I was put ashore at Gosport late that evening having made some good friends on board. my forehead needed seventeen stitches and the medics sent me on three weeks sick leave to give it time to heal"

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hello,


FCL vol 1 has P2947 down as Sqdn Ldr Fenton's a/c on the 8th Aug.
With P3617 F/O MacCaw and P3823 being F/Lt.Turner.

Thank you for details re P/O B. Firminger.

Still leaves the question re Bann though.

There must be details of hime coming ashore and being checked out and returning to Squadron somewhere, local Police records perhaps, if we knew where he came ashore.


Alex

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Many thanks Nick for posting details from S/L FENTON's account.

The German pilot he shared a cabin can be identified as Oberlt Martin MULLER the Gruppenadjutant of Stab I./StG3. So either S/L FENTON misunderstood him to say he was a 110 pilot or MULLER was being highly security concious. And yes, he WAS from Leipzig !

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Alex

No i am certainly not saying it was Bann into the sea, i only wish we could find some details on this incident. I have done a good deal of research on Sgt Bann but this incident, together with identifying the JU88 or Heinkel he again mentions in a letter, that he followed almost back to France before killing its rear gunner with his last burst i can find no further information on. ( i will post this as a question with a date soon)
Sgt Bann is a fascinating pilot to study, just an "ordinary" pilot with four confirmed kills including shared before he was Killed on 28/09/40.
I am visiting his crash site on the Isle of Wight in a few weeks my 5th visit to it and would love to have the answers to these final few questions.
Thanks for all the help
Jon Eeles

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the wonderful information from your uncles log book, this is most useful to me. What a fascinating thread this as turned out to be!

Many thanks.

Rgs
Steve.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hello Nick

I'm in total agrement with Steve. Especially the log of Your uncle's activities in July 40 is very enlighting. It shows once again the workload of fighter pilots during high activity. On can only admire their stamina.

Thankfully
Juha

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Nick
Excellent stuff! Any mention of the Poles in the memoirs?
Anyway, I would like to note that neither log-book nor ORB cannot be considered a definite source of correct information on aircraft or sorties. An extreme care must be taken, especially during such a hot periods.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Jon, is it possible Mr Bann was shooting a line, or making someone else's story his own?

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Franek

Herewith some quotes re. the Poles in 238 during the Battle from his memoir :-

First on returning from sick leave:

"The battle was still very much at it's height and, after a medical I was quickly back in the old routine. We were becoming short of pilots but the Poles and Czechs began to arrive and were like manna from heaven. What they lacked in English, they more than made up in experience and spirit and it is amazing how quickly we all became firm friends. The only snag was that, after an engagement, and not being very good on the R/T, they were liable to land at various other airfields in southern England so I could never be sure of what casualties I had until it had been sorted out. Most of them were regulars in their own services and more experienced than our crowd.
Vernon Simmonds had usually flown as my No.2 but now led a section himself so I drafted in Sgt. Marrion Domagala, a Pole into the position and found it reassuring to have a man of his determination and ability on my wingtip. I remember an incident a month or two later. We were together trying to intercept a German 'Recce'. There were huge thunderstorms and inside one my airspeed indicator iced up and failed as the heater was on the blink. I could keep straight but went up and down violently. All this time Domagala stuck to my wingtip like glue!
For some months I flew with Domagala (Polish) and Bernard (Czech) on each side and reckoned I had the finest section in the Command".


And from the Appendix at the end of his book re. 238 Squadron:

" In 238 Squadron during the Battle of Britain in the few months we lost eighteen pilots - an appalling figure. This was not any reflection on skill or training, as many were able and experienced. If we had had time to get together and do some tactical training, it could have helped but that was not possible until the winter when the battle was over.
I suppose it was a little more bearable because I knew so many of them for such a short time. The sort of dialogue could be, " Glad to have you with us; you'd better fly with me today". A typical example was a likeable Pole, Jan Steborowski. He joined 238 on August 5th and was killed on the 11th having himself shot down a Bf 110 on the 8th, the day I was shot down myself so I did not know about it until later. Both Flight Commanders, Walch and Turner, were killed in early August - I had taken over less than a month before.
After the battle, first Charles Davies and later Pearson and Ray Sellers were lost. By then we had had time to become close friends and I felt their loss bitterly.
Now only a few of the originals remain; Vernon Simmonds, Gordon Batt, Jackie Urwin-Mann, Brian Considine and 'Covey' Covington. Marrion Domagala died early this year (1991)".

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Franek and Nick

I have looked through the copies of Sgt Banns letters i own and he also mention the Poles in particular Domagala who he says often spoke of the Germans machine gunning Polish civilians in the streets !!
I also have a copy of the original 238 Squadron kill chart compiled by the Intelligence officer in 1940, it lists the whole squadron with his personal kills. Of interest are :

Sgt Jeka......4 110's 2 HE111's 1 JU88.......confirmed.
Sgt Domagala... 2 110's 2 109's......Confirmed.
S/L H Fenton.....1 DO17 (shared with Bann) 4 110's 1 HE111...confirmed.
Sgt Bann............1 DO17 (shared with Fenton) 1 110 2 HE111 ( i now know one of the HE111 was infact a JU88 )

Regards
Jon

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Andy.

As for Sgt Bann line shooting, i suppose it is very possible he might have, but i hope it is simply a case of the information not being logged down !!

I have also now finished my research on who Sgt Bann shot down and also the pilots who could have killed him on 28/07/40. If interested i can post it here.

Thanks
Jon

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Jon,

I for one, would be most interested to see the fruits of your research on sgt Bann, as im sure Andy would himself.
Please Jon, any further information would be most welcome!

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Nick
It is excellent - many thanks! Beg you pardon but do you have any period photos of Domagala as well? This Squadron seems to be not so well photographed, so anything is precious.
Jon
Any chance for copies of the mentioned letters?
The kills chart is intriguing:
Sgt Jeka......4 110's 2 HE111's 1 JU88.......confirmed.
Józef Jeka is credited with 2-0-0 He 111, 1,5-0-1 Me 110, 1-0-0 Ju 88 and 0-0-1 u/i rejected.
Sgt Domagala... 2 110's 2 109's......Confirmed.
Marian Domagała is credited with 2-0-0 Me 109 and 1-0-0 Me 110.
Missing is Michał Jan Stęborowski with 1-0-0 Me 110.
Best wishes
Franek

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Jon, that would be great, thanks!

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi Andy.

Yes i will post my findings over the next few days, i just need to cross a few T's and dot a few I's first.

Franek. Yes i can see no reason why not, i will contact you privatley
Regards
Jon

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Hi again Franek

I am afraid I have no photos of Domagala but I do know my uncle kept in touch with him and the other squadron originals up until his death. We have a video of the last Squadron reunion at Middle Wallop where my uncle spoke. Not sure what year or who from 238 attended but I think it may have been the late eighties or early nineties. Will contact my brother who has the tape and try to find out as it would be interesting to know who was there.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Thanks Nick, that would be interesting. By any chance do you have any photos of 1940 period? As you probably noticed, 238 is quite poorly documented unit, so virtually every photo is precious.
with the best wishes

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Franek, my uncle had no photos amongst his papers of 238 during the BOB period unfortunately, and I only have one photo of their time in the Western Desert. As you say there is virtually no pictorial record of this squadron that has surfaced since the war.

Re: 238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940
 

Nick
Well, for some reason some units suffer from such a lack of photos. I am wondering why, at last camera was not a luxury and there were no strict regulations against taking photos.
Anyway, if you like a wartime shot of Domagała (or any other Pole), drop me your e-mail address via PM.
Oh, for some reason I forgot about two other Poles flying with 238 - Stanisław Duszyński and Władysław Różycki.